Brexit

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  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    imagelost said:

    A thought
    What happens if t may resigns is that not leadership contest?

    It doesn't look as if May knows the word "quit". As someone wrote somewhere she's suffered various falures that would have been enough reason for any previous PM to resign but she's carried on regardless.

    It seems her one defining quality is sheer obstinate persistence, like a moth banging against a window to get at the light the other side.

    When she first put her deal forward it lost 202-432 (-230)
    On the second attempt it lost 242-391 (-149)
    The third time it lost 286-344 (-58)

    At this rate if she can get it to a fourth vote she could finally win.
  • BarneyBarney
    Let's hope so. Then we can move on and deal with the other big issues. I guess we are all fed up with the B word
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    edited April 2019
    The best part is where they all believe that after May resigns and they bring in the next 'fool' to take on Brexit should the WA get through, they think they will be able to negotiate decent trade terms with the EU in the 'future relationship' oh how wrong will they be again and we come out with a deal just as complimentary useless as May's.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    I must be mellowing in my old age. Had totally forgotten about this mob, don`t agree with all that they say, but with all the main parties "unelectable" and the amusingly named "change" being anything but, these chaps, if they get their act together, could provide an alternative:

    https://sdp.org.uk/
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Actually that is the third version of the SDP. The second version was formed by David Owen when the rest of the first SDP voted to merge with the Liberals to form the Lib Dems.

    The second version collapsed after the 1990 Bootle by election where they got fewer votes than the Monster Raving Looney Party.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    In response to Piers Morgan asserting that

    No Deal is actually Brexit.
    People voted to leave the EU, not to stay in bits of it.


    Comes this epic response. It's on Twitter here:



    or in slightly more readable form here:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1113547733300842497.html

    It 's what at times seems like an inexhaustible set of links to pro-Brexit politicians, during the campaign, being certain that the UK would continue to trade tariff free with the EU, and that the deal we would get would bound to be better than our current one, and that there couldn't actually be a no deal Brexit.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    In simple terms why can’t we trade tariff free. What stops our government saying we won’t apply tariffs on our goods which would make our exports cheaper. Why does the EU have to apply tariffs to make their goods more expensive which is to the detriment of the member countries.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    thorn

    I think it's hard enough keeping up with the 'what is' in all this, without adding 'why isn't' to the mix.

    As you can see from the clips quoted, all the major Brexit players promised that the UK would have a better deal than the one that was in existence prior to the vote, whilst no longer being members of the EU.

    They were all challenged, many times, to put some flesh on what that deal might look like, and none of them did.

    Bozzer and Gove served as ministers while the current deal was being put in place.

  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Cheers Aslef. I Thought it all ended when they joined the Liberals. I quite like the look of some of their policies/aims.

    I find it a little strange that Yvette Cooper is fighting vehemently to protect our country from the "certainty" of the "chaos" and "damage" that is going to be caused by a no deal Brexit (for how long she doesn`t say,) but was quite happy to vote for the Iraq war. A war that WAS certain to cause chaos and damage, cost the country billions, and cost tens of thousands of lives. Nice lady.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited April 2019
    thornburyiron said:

    In simple terms why can’t we trade tariff free. What stops our government saying we won’t apply tariffs on our goods which would make our exports cheaper. Why does the EU have to apply tariffs to make their goods more expensive which is to the detriment of the member countries.

    In simple terms tariffs are charged on imports not exports.

    After we leave the EU will get to decide what tariffs are charged on UK exports to the EU and we will get to decide what tariffs are charged on imports from the EU coming into the UK.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Asked I know but my point is we don’t have to apply tariffs if we don’t want to and nor do they. The EU as a body may want to but I’m sure the member states would rather not
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    thornburyiron said:

    Asked I know but my point is we don’t have to apply tariffs if we don’t want

    Well, we are members of the WTO, for a start.

    So unless we have agreed a new trade deal with individual trading partners, we have to stick to the rules we have already agreed.

    Secondly, when negotiating a trade deal, we could say that we won't set tariffs on imports. Our potential trading partner might be delighted. But they won't necessarily reciprocate. So then we'd be in a position of selling our stuff cheap, and buying their stuff at high (net) prices. Doesn't sound too desirable, to me.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45112872
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    You try telling domestic producers that we are going to let companies and businesses import loads of cheap stuff from somewhere else.

    Read this https://www.ft.com/content/d97854c2-2941-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Do people deliberately misinterpret stuff. 😀I’m talking only about trading with EU countries going forward.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    thornburyiron said:

    Asked I know but my point is we don’t have to apply tariffs if we don’t want to and nor do they. The EU as a body may want to but I’m sure the member states would rather not

    We can indeed choose not to charge tariffs or charge lower tariffs which makes imports cheaper.

    I mentioned a few weeks ago that Michael Gove plans on reducing the tariffs on various foodstuffs in order to keep consumer prices down but that will have (and is already having) serious implications for UK farming.

    One of the reasons why the member states join the EU is to trade as a body, not as separate countries. For a member state to trade with the UK separately from the rest of the EU they'd have to leave the EU themselves.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    As far as I understand that, far from promoting free trade, the EU acts as a bit of a straight jacket as far as individual member states are concerned then. Surely all states following the same rules is as restrictive as it is "emancipating".

    I still also think that all arguments are currently "as thing stand". Surely Brexit should be seen as future opportunity. Why can`t we actively support British farmers. Instead of worrying about the implications of import/export tariffs now, why can`t we look at making/growing/producing things we currently import. The EU and its institutions perpetuate a system geared to big business and big finance. Small local businesses and producers are getting swallowed up by the giants. If we carry on as we are, which we seemed determined to do, there will literally be a handful of multi billionaires controlling/supplying virtually everything we watch, wear and consume. I cannot understand, when you look at what is happening in the World, why there is such clamour to maintain the status quo. Fear I suppose.

    As far as Brexit is concerned, anything but a clean break is pointless. We may as well remain, all the current Brexit proposals (as I understand them) leave us in a worse position than remaining. A once in a lifetime vote was promised, in or out, the result shocked the establishment. Ever since, our elected representatives, big business and finance, the bank of england, "A" list celebrities, and most of the mainstream media have done their utmost to block Brexit. They have succeeded. A totally pointless exercise and a huge waste of time and money.

    There is one bonus to come out of this. Whether you voted remain or leave, I think most would agree that our politicians have been shown up for the useless twonks that they are.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    thornburyiron said:

    Do people deliberately misinterpret stuff. 😀I’m talking only about trading with EU countries going forward.

    The arguments for and against reducing tariffs don't change according to the trading partner(s).
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    TheMadcapLaughs said:



    Instead of worrying about the implications of import/export tariffs now, why can`t we look at making/growing/producing things we currently import.

    Well, unless you can change the climate, or suddenly create minerals, ores and other raw materials under the earth... you will be stuck with importing or doing without.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited April 2019
    A once in a lifetime vote was promised, in or out

    This is precisely what triggering Article 50 is bringing about.

    There was nothing in the referendum question to suggest what that might involve, beyond no longer being an EU member state.

    the proposition is that the UK remains or leaves the EU. There is nothing on when this should happen, or how it should happen, whether by Article 50 or other means (such as a new treaty). There is nothing, at least explicitly, on whether Britain should remain part of the EU single market or customs union (both are possible without being members of the EU), or on Euratom (again not explicitly). And there is nothing on what type of relationship, if any, the EU and UK should have after Brexit.
    https://www.ft.com/content/b56b2b36-1835-37c6-8152-b175cf077ae8


    For people to argue that, beyond no longer being an EU state, they thought it would deliver X, Y, or Z after the vote, they have no reason for any such expectations.

    Certainly, Johnson and his fellow travelers offered the prospect of leaving Europe, being free from EU restrictions, saving bucket-loads of cash, and getting a better deal than the existing one, but frankly, if people believed that, I've got a couple of bridges going spare.

    We may as well remain, all the current Brexit proposals (as I understand them) leave us in a worse position than remaining.

    One of the reasons I posited for choosing remain.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mrs G, I was going to add where geographically/geologically possible but thought it unnecessary.

    Oh, and god forbid we go without iPhone 28........
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr G, as I`ve said before, everyone I know that voted leave expected a clean break. The article 50 that said we would be leaving 29th march? Also "no deal" is a bit of a misnomer, there is no such thing as "no deal" it just sounds good as a soundbite. Same as crashing out, off a cliff edge etc etc etc.

    Voting Remain, implies to me, that you are happy that the top 1% are getting richer and richer (literally as I type), whilst most of the rest are getting squeezed that little bit more, and those at the very bottom have gone about as far as they can go. I`m not being funny, but what would you suggest the EU change to reverse that. As far as I can see, the EU leaders do everything they can to foster and promote the steady march of Global capital. They are not foolish enough to openly promote this (Macron apart) but that appears to be what drives them. Everything is about big business, trade and finance. That is not a personal dig by the way, I know in the past you admitted leaning towards economic Marxism, I just wonder why you think the EU is so great. It baffles me.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Leaving or staying in - will make no difference whatsoever to economic inequailty within our country. That comes from our own government.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    I don't see how describing an exit from the EU without an agreed deal as 'No Deal' can be a misnomer. It seems to me to be simply descriptive.

    I don't particularly think the EU is 'so great', but I do think that being a member of it is preferable to not. For me, anything that takes the edge of petty nationalism is a good thing. Since my vote in general elections may well not lead to a government of my choosing (a bigger 'blow to democracy' than any EU stuff, imo) I'm happy that the EU provides a set of checks and balances.

    I might equally ask you if you honestly believe that voting to leave is really sticking it to global capitalism. Do you imagine that in a post-Brexit leave state the UK will be any different at all in terms of its attitude towards capitalism?


  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mrs G, I was referring to inequality globally, with the EU complicit in that, and I don`t think it will change. Specifically in Britain, I think that by leaving the EU, it will give us a focus, to actually do things better than the EU. I know that will not happen immediately, and believe me, I`m not relying on Messrs Rees-Mogg, Farage, or Johnson to provide the answers, I just think that Brexit gives us a once only chance of possibly effecting long term change. It may all go horribly wrong, but not having the guts to at least try, I find frustrating and cowardly.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    As far as I understand that, far from promoting free trade, the EU acts as a bit of a straight jacket as far as individual member states are concerned then. Surely all states following the same rules is as restrictive as it is "emancipating".

    As with any system there are advantages and disadvantages, none of the countries that joined the EU were forced into it, they decided that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Why can`t we actively support British farmers. Instead of worrying about the implications of import/export tariffs now, why can`t we look at making/growing/producing things we currently import.

    Because British farmland can't provide everything we currently import. Our biggest agricultural export is barley, mostly for brewing. We grow far more barley than we can possibly consume but the fields its grown in aren't necessarily suitable for many other crops (I get all this info from "The Agri Brigade" column in Private Eye, I wouldn't know barley from wheat if I was looking at it).

    We export loads of lamb and import loads of beef but the sort of pasture suitable for sheep farming is not suitable for cattle farming.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Sorry, Madcap, but I object to your suggesting that I am 'cowardly'.

    My decision relating to the UK's remaining in the EU is rational, and based on self-interest, not fear. That it differs from yours is just something you will have to accept, preferably without offensive epithets.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr G, "no deal" is used in a very negative sense, it SHOULD be descriptive only, but has been hijacked and interpreted in an almost apocalyptic way. In my mind there is either immediate agreed trading terms or WTO terms. No deal implies an immediate cessation of trade, everything will stop on leaving, not the case. I agree with your take on the good things the EU provides and implies. I also agree on the principle of federalism. Federalism though (imo) should be fluid, voluntary, and mutually beneficial. It should not be imposed from above, and it should not be restrictive. The EU has become a bloated, bureaucratic mess. The page linked below amuses me:

    https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies_en
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr G, furthest thing from my mind. I meant the politicians have been cowardly, not you.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef, I know we can`t provide everything we currently import, but just a small swing to home grown, home produced would be a start. Surely from any perspective, the less miles something has to travel, has got to be a good thing. I`m not suggesting we close ourselves off and become Europes North Korea, with Kim Jong Mogg as our divine leader, but a little effort towards producing stuff again is desirable imo. Brexit, I would hope, would bring this into sharp focus.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited April 2019
    Another interesting agriculture problem, every year around 800m litres of milk crosses the border from Ireland into Northern Ireland, is made into cheese and butter with the majority of it going back over the border. That's a lotta cow juice...
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