Brexit

Vorselaarhammer

ValiantIron interesting contribution... :ok:

I would like to know the % of the manufacturing for British companies.

I not sure on corporate tax but imagine a Nissan is worse for the country than a British layland all being relative.. 🤔

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Aslef, Mrs G, I'm sorry, but these workers rights and green policies were being advocated by the Anarchists 150 years ago, the same Anarchists that were imprisoned and executed by the kind governments now passing these things into "law".

So what? How is that relevant to weighing up the advantages and disadvantages of leaving the EU?

Does it matter what happened 150 years ago?

If the protections are good, and we have evidence the UK govt won't enforce them but the EU will, isn't that a point in favour of EU membership?

TheMadcapLaughs

Valiant, thanks for that. The UK was at the forefront of manufacturing, innovation, progressive policies, tolerance and acceptance. Britain is known for its sense of fair play. We have led the world at times in terms of healthcare and the welfare state. Our judgment has been coloured since Thatcher, very recent history. Don't let us think that Britain needs to be led, lectured by countries that have all been dominated by fascist dictators. Again fascist, authoritarian traits within France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria and eastern European countries are beginning to surface, Britain has never allowed the extreme right a foothold. I can't believe that people think we need to look to these countries for moral guidance. Now that our government has allowed brexit to fail I honestly think that the extreme right in this country will grow. People think that the brexit vote has emboldened the far right, given a half decent go at brexit and I think that the far right would have crawled back under their rocks. Parliaments gutless attempts at delivering brexit and failing miserably will come back to haunt them. The Tories and Labour have both failed their natural support, people will be looking for alternatives, ripe ground for the far right. I was hoping for a brexit that would deliver an outward looking progressive country. I think the failure to deliver brexit will cause more chaos than a "no deal".

MrsGrey

valiant - interesting. Tell me more!

Are there other ways of measuring it that give a less rosy picture?

Eg, the % of manufacturing output that is consumed by the domestic market, and how much exported? What did it use to be, what is it now?

I'm not sure what 'maintained its value' means and -fair enough -we are still in the top 10 (since when - over what period - what is the highest we have ever been) but what is the gap between the top and us, and how has this changed? A scale like that can only show so much of the picture, and I suspect it's a bit more complicated.....

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

The UK was at the forefront of manufacturing, innovation, progressive policies, tolerance and acceptance. Britain is known for its sense of fair play.

Meaningless generalisations and cliches.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, the EU is not the progressive panacea you are making it out to be. Try telling the yellow vests in France how protective the EU is. These issues are not new or fresh. People have been fighting for years for what should be basic, natural human rights. I am coming at this from a totally different angle, I personally want out of the EU because as an institution I think it is regressive, not progressive. I am not going to big up the EU for laws that should be basic common sense. I want out of the EU on (my) principle, and then we have a small chance of making this tiny piece of the globe a better place. If we don't leave, and I don't think we will, I really really hope parliament has a long hard look at how it functions and what this countries priorities are.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, very harsh. A lot of thought went into that. Crushed.

TheMadcapLaughs

.

OutcastLondoner

Don't believe for one second the far-right would've been happy with a "no-deal" Brexit, or whichever form was acceptable, and then faded away. We all know Europeans were never their main target, just the easiest one to go for and stop entering, through Brexit. They would feel emboldened and then go for the others, the people they actually spend all their time talking about and attacking. The people who have been attacked before and after Brexit in the media and on the streets.

They would have claimed that victory even if it wasn't their victory, even if it doesn't represent the rest of the people who voted to Leave. That doesn't mean people who want to leave shouldn't feel entitled having their wish delivered but I don't accept that everything now is empowering them and it would've all gone away if we had a no deal Brexit.

I don't think appeasing fascists is a good idea.

TheMadcapLaughs

Brexit is and never was about appeasing fascists. Failing to deliver brexit however will certainly stoke the embers. The far right have always been at the periphery of British politics, I think parliaments failure opens up potentially a fertile hunting ground amongst disaffected voters for the far right. It is the failure of neo liberal policies and the general apathy shown by European leaders that has led to this.

OutcastLondoner

Of formal politics, yes, maybe they have been on the periphery.

They haven't been on the periphery of British life.

chicagohammer

There should always be room for some blue sky thinking and discussion on “what if” scenarios but we have to return to reality as it is in reality where we are all trying to carve out a decent living for ourselves.

At the end of the day, at the time of the vote the UK enjoyed the fifth largest economy in the world, US, China, Japan and Germany were the only economies larger that ours, soooo, despite the inefficiency and bureaucracy associted with being a within the EU, the UK was doing rather well.

I failed to see a comprehensible argument that leaving would make life better for us, why was it thought that a stand alone UK could realistically expect to negioate better and truly favorable trade deals with the rest of the world.

I also believe, (albeit no doubt foolishly by some) that the necessary bureaucracy and pure cost associated with trying to establish totally new trade, operational and diplomatic relations with the rest of world would probably exceed the so called cost of membership in any case.

Whatever the outcome from this moment, it is clear that the Government cannot hope to please everyone, but I think that a second referendum is the only real option now to provide hope in appeasing the majority, there seems to be a good chance that the prior vote to leave may not just be overturned, but crushed.

In that event, even the leavers would have to accept the vote, if the leavers win narrowly again then guess what, we leave, the only real threat Is if the result is another closer call, say 51-49 in favor of staying, that would create a situation where it Is clear that the people are stubbonly divided.

If that was the result, despite the resultant uncertainty, I think that we should formally announce our intent to stay and set in stone a third round in 2 or 3 years time, the time would allow feelings to cool whilst keeping a route to leave open.

It seems ridiculous to even suggest a 2 out of 3 approach but it seems no more ridiculous that the situation we currrently find ourselves in.

ValiantIron

I knew of the general manufacturing position from experience, and as you may have gathered the pretty constant running down of it in the media annoys me! However, I knew that any figures would be subject to challenge here, so I found a parliamentary research paper from last year to base them on. It even answers some of Mrs Grey's questions about trends.

Overall I believe manufacturing is following a typical economic development curve like agriculture before it - now only 2% of the economy, but more importantly producing as much if not more food than ever. Other areas will follow once automation and machine learning really kicks in - less labour, same or more output.

chicagohammer

Valiant, some fascinating data there and interesting conclusions, the UK seems to have been very successful in generating GDP away from manufacturing, overall GDP 5th largest and yet in manufacturing as a percentage of GDP, we are 118th.

We all know that China has grown but living here in the US, you would be forgiven for believing that the US does not make anything anymore and yet they make nearly twice the manufacturing product of Japan in third place.

I think it is clear that China and the US have cornered the automatic promotion spots for some time to come, :-)

To be fair to our supreme leader, Donald seems to be doing a decent job in looking to apply the Fair play rules with the league leaders but I think that the new managers from the less fashionable teams are likely to overtake him with their new ideas on tactics. :deadhorse:

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Aslef, Mrs G, I'm sorry, but these workers rights and green policies were being advocated by the Anarchists 150 years ago, the same Anarchists that were imprisoned and executed by the kind governments now passing these things into "law".

Not just anarchists, socialists were advocating for the same things at the same time but it was socialists who organised into unions then formed the Labour party to represent them in parliament and won those rights against the opposition of the ruling class.

Socialists got stuff done while anarchists were sitting around endlessly debating the finer details of Kropotkin.

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Yeold, I'm all in favour of cooperation, cooperation is the predominant human trait, it doesn't take a bloated bureaucracy and EU dictats for humans to cooperate. I'm sure we'll get along quite nicely without Mr Juncker telling us the correct procedures.

If cooperation is the predominant human trait then its the predominant trait of the EU's bloated bureaucracy and Mr Juncker.

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Aslef, the financial collapse was a failure of global capitalism, nothing to do with Blair or Brown.

That's not what I said, is it. What I said was Blair and Brown's "light touch" on regulation meant that the UK suffered a deeper recession than other countries like Germany who had stricter regulations.

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Valiant, thanks for that. The UK was at the forefront of manufacturing, innovation, progressive policies, tolerance and acceptance. Britain is known for its sense of fair play. We have led the world at times in terms of healthcare and the welfare state. Our judgment has been coloured since Thatcher, very recent history.

Britain ruled an empire until just after WW2, our sense of fair play only went as far as the cricket pitch. The sense of fair play certainly wasn't much evident in the way we treated our own working class either.

Germany had universal health care and a welfare state under Bismark (not much of a socialist by all accounts) in the 1880s, we had to wait until 1948.

ASLEFshrugged

Valiant - in 1978 25% of UK jobs were in manufacturing, today its just 8% and our working population hasn't increased 300%.

Our output may have done well but as far as employment goes it has been drastically reduced.

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Brexit is and never was about appeasing fascists.

Correct. Brexit was about appeasing the anti-EU wing of the Tory party and neutralising UKIP' threat in marginals at the 2015 general election.

Cameron believed the referendum would never actually happen because he thought the result would be a hung parliament and the Lib Dems would veto it.

BubblesNeverDies

Aslef, thanks for those :bowdown:

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef. I would normally bow to your encyclopedic knowledge of history, politics, current events etc etc and assume that if you have presented something it can be taken as fact. On this occasion I would have to disagree with you on two points. Firstly, from around 1850 99% of Anarchists were socialists. There was/is no distinction between socialists and Anarchists. Anarchists may have been at one end of the socialist spectrum, but they were socialists nonetheless. To say that Anarchists from this period took no active part and sat around discussing the finer points of Kropotkin is plainly wrong. There may have been a heady mix of intellectuals, authors, artists etc that sat around, but the vast bulk of Anarchists took an active, direct role. I won`t bore you with a list of actions/events, but within the socialist movement Anarchists were at the sharp end in producing and distributing socialist propaganda and literature, they were at the sharp end whenever there were strikes and lockouts, and at the sharp end in any potentially revolutionary agitation. If you want to talk about unions, the largest, most powerful and enduring labour unions at that time were Anarchist inspired. Anarchists fought, died and were imprisoned and executed in the name of socialism.
Where Anarchists differed from more moderate socialists is in the concept of power and governance. Within the socialist movement at that time there were the social democrats who believed that by becoming elected into existing government they could change the system from within. The Anarchists were opposed to this direction, they concluded (and history has justified this opinion) that socialists once in government or opposition would water down their aims and aspirations. They would be likely to appease big business and finance and become part of the establishment. See Blairs New Labour for confirmation.
The second strain of socialism advocated a revolutionary overthrow of the current order. Anarchists were fine (for the most part) with this. What the Anarchists objected to was what came next, I.E. the dictatorship of the proletariat. The Anarchists predicted that one tyranny would be replaced by another. Again, history in the form of Russia, China etc etc has more than justified this position. The Anarchists fought with and supported the Bolsheviks, once the Bolsheviks seized power the Anarchists and all opposition was crushed. You cannot impose socialism.
I agree, socialists got stuff done, but it was the Anarchists that were in the vanguard.

Germany were in a better position to weather the financial crisis, not because of rules and regulations, but because of their manufacturing base. Germany relies on manufacturing for its success, Britain relies on financial services. It is no surprise that in any financial crash, a country that relies predominantly on the financial sector suffers more than one that has a large manufacturing base. That is why I would like us to rely less on financial services and "make more stuff".

grey_til_I_dye

A look at how illegal finance, and targeted 'dark' ads were used in the Leave campaign.

And where did Aaron Banks get all that money from?

https://www.zdf.de/politik/frontal-21/drahtzieher-des-brexits-english-version-100.html

TheMadcapLaughs

I`ll take your point regarding my bigging up the UK, not that I agree entirely, but I can`t type any more (for now). :biggrin:

TheMadcapLaughs

All I got from that link is that the EU wants to kill polar bears. Another reason to leave.

MrsGrey

grey_til_I_dye said:

A look at how illegal finance, and targeted 'dark' ads were used in the Leave campaign.

And where did Aaron Banks get all that money from?

https://www.zdf.de/politik/frontal-21/drahtzieher-des-brexits-english-version-100.html

And not limited to that campaign.

A number of so-called independent groups presenting themselves as grassroots campaigns run by 'ordinary' members of the public and pressuring MPs to reject the deal are, in truth a co-ordinated group run by staff from a lobbying company, and have spent over £1m getting people to put pressure on their MPs to vote for no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

And if you had received such a targeted ad, and clicked the link, you would then have received a raft of more specific ads, many containing outright lies.

As one of the guys in the video points out, it is profoundly undemocratic to have campaigns that are 'dark', with information that is not freely published, and therefore can be challenged. And that's without pointing out that they were illegally financed.

Hammerex

Iv'e got a better idea, lets stick to football.

BubblesNeverDies

Hammerex, there's lots of other threads on this forum doing just that, this is the Brexit thread

BubblesNeverDies

Grey,
https://www.zdf.de/politik/frontal-21/drahtzieher-des-brexits-english-version-100.html

That is truly shocking, but how many people that voted leave would be concerned about the dirty tricks.
How many on here would admit to being swayed to vote leave?

grey_til_I_dye

Bubbles

I don't think the issue is even whether or not the tricks worked: it's the fact that they were carried out.

What I find most disturbing is that this blatant disregard for the democratic process has not become a story, outside of the usual media.

We have a group that have deliberately and cynically subverted the democratic process in the UK, and instead of screaming from the housetops, all you see is a 'out means out' or 'they all lied' response.

As Farage is seen saying at the end: 'middle England doesn't care' - and I fear he is right.

BubblesNeverDies

Grey, your last sentence, that's what I meant.