Brexit

Barney

I don't understand this thing about we will only do things if the EU tell us - that is why I switched to leave. EU tell us to stop farming and they just give out subsidies. EU put such tight standards (unnecessarily so) on fruit and veg that there is huge wastage. EU wastes huge amounts of money on meetings, moving files from one location to the next because they cant agree where to meet; red carpet etc for their meetings; refuse to declare their expenses.
why do we need the EU to run OUR country. what next - european army, european police force etc etc. Why should their courts, parliament etc be superior to ours?
if other countries are better then ours then that is where people should live. I love GB and I want us to thrive in our own way.
it is also very wrong that they are trying to make it difficult for us to leave; I think they are worried that others will do the same. Time to get out and others will follow.
Just my opinion!!

MrsGrey

Can you give me an example of what the 'tight standards' are on fruit and veg, and why you think this (the example you give) isn't necessary?

More generally, their courts aren't 'superior to ours'. But if its an EU law that requires and interpretation or a judgement, the EU court has a role to play. Rightly, imo, so that the law is interpreted and applied consistently.

It is's a domestic UK law, then the EU courts have no jurisdiction at all. And our own courts make the decisions.

Seems fine to me.

MrsGrey

Barney said:

it is also very wrong that they are trying to make it difficult for us to leave;

How are they making it difficult?

We could have left last week, but chose not to. Where they lying on the ground holding round our ankles?

Colchester_Iron

I would suggest the 'backstop' makes it difficult for us to leave.

I think the backstop is an EU initiative.

The EU were always going to make it difficult for us to leave because they do not want to see any further exodus.

Whitehorsehammer

Madcap said

And the concrete reasons for staying in the EU are................?

For me it is that I am a citizen of Europe and I can travel, work, own property without problem. I feel privilaged to be in other European countries as a European citizen, if we leave I will feel like an outsider. I desperately hope that we get a second referendum and choose to stay.

thornburyiron

Whitehorse everyone in Europe is a citizen of Europe but you don’t have to be a citizen of the EU.
If what you’re saying is you’d like to be a citizen of a federal state of Europe then that’s your choice but it’s not the same thing.

MrsGrey

Colchester_Iron said:

I would suggest the 'backstop' makes it difficult for us to leave.

I think the backstop is an EU initiative.

The EU were always going to make it difficult for us to leave because they do not want to see any further exodus.

Well, maybe .


Another way of looking at it is that the 'no border between NI and Ireland' is a UK initiative - something the UK has invented and insisting on. The EU don't mind if there is, but are trying to accomodate the UK.

MrsGrey

I must say I find it very ironic that the EU's requirement to have a border at which goods and people coming in to the EU can be monitored is seen as them being awkward.

When 'getting back control of our borders' was such a motivating argument for so many who voted Leave.

Barney

Mrs Grey - there have been many examples of wastage due to EU standards see https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/third-of-food-wasted-as-its-too-ugly-for-eu-and-shops-rhk6b3mpm

Moojor

anyone see Rees mogg or whatever his name is Twitter comments. Basically in 2016 he tweets we need to leave because we have no power in the EU and now he tweets that if we have to stay for a bit we should use our power to veto everything the EU wants to do....So straight up lie back in 2016 about us being powerless in the EU....

thornburyiron

According to the Irish guy he’s never seen a veto used by anybody so having a veto looks a bit toothless.

Whitehorsehammer

Thorn, If it was not clear I was of course referring to being a citizen of the EU, with all the benefits that gives me and which I will be very annoyed to have taken away from me.

MrsGrey

Barney said:

Mrs Grey - there have been many examples of wastage due to EU standards see https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/third-of-food-wasted-as-its-too-ugly-for-eu-and-shops-rhk6b3mpm

Barney, sorry, it's a paywall, and I can't read the full article.

From the couple of paragraphs I can see, I notce

Up to a third of fresh food grown on British farmsis discarded each year because... new research claims.

The team at Edinburgh University claims to have estimated the quantity of fruit and vegetables lost and emissions produced in the UK as a result of EU Commission controls and stores with a large market share


So, I can't accept that as evidence as (a) it's only 'estimates' and 'claims' and (b) it's in part due to supermarket decision, but it's not clear what part.

grey_til_I_dye

The EU rules re food shape were removed in 2009

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/3443343/EU-to-allow-sale-of-odd-shaped-fruit-and-vegetables.html

BubblesNeverDies

Madcap, I've had other things to do today, but I'm back briefly. :biggrin:
You said
"If things were absolutely 100% going swimmingly 17.4 million people wouldn`t have voted to leave."

You know as well as I do (although you'd never admit it), that 17.4 million people were conned into believing that the EU was the cause of the financial crash of 2008, subsequent Tory austerity measures, a million Turks were at the border and anything else Farage, Reet-Smugg and his band the ERG (if ever there was a misnomer) et al could think of.

If there had been a referendum prior to the 2008 financial crash do you really believe that Leave would've won.
It was just convenient for all the rabid anti-EU (insert epithet) to blame the EU for everything.

As far as the concrete reasons for remain, Whitehorse mentioned some of them.
But the idea of self-sufficiency ignores that we're all on a little rock in space and if we don't get our act together soon we won't be on it much longer.

You keep talking about co-operation and yet you want us out of a fantastic project which is trying to unite millions of people not by force but by choice and which was born out of the ashes of WW2 in an attempt for it never to happen again.

And you keep going on about Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin, can you tell me what he actually achieved?

And btw Aslef, Grey and MrsGrey among others have been dismantling all the "vague" reasons that people voted to leave.

Now I need a beer. :biggrin: :ale:

And I know you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" :biggrin:

Barney

I guess it does not matter what articles are produced they can be easily dismissed if you are so inclined. There are many more and there have been TV programmes on the subject as well. I guess if you want to stay in the EU then you believe articles that suit you; I want to leave so I am more inclined to believe the articles that support my view. It just needs to be sorted sooner rather than later.

MrsGrey

Barney said:

I guess if you want to stay in the EU then you believe articles that suit you; I want to leave so I am more inclined to believe the articles that support my view. It just needs to be sorted sooner rather than later.

Well, anyone can believe whatever they like, of course. Even if it is that the earth is flat.

But if something is proven factually wrong, I think anyone who believes it is wilfully ignorant.

Saying the EU makes us throw away food because it doesn't meet size/shape regulations is on a par with saying I want to stay in the EU because when I get to 60 they'll give me a Harrods food hamper every month and 3 free holidays to an EU destination of my choice.

Both are untrue.

Articles can be 'easily dismissed' if one has no interest in the truth.

MrsGrey

So far, I've not hear a single valid statement of fact that justifies leaving the EU.

And believe me, I'd like to!

They make us do this, they make us do that .... every reason I've heard is just false.

On the other hand, if someone says they just don't want to be part of a group, they want to the UK to do things their own way without reference to a bigger group, they don't want to cooperate or compromise... well, that's fair enough.

It's not a point of view I agree with, but it's as valid as any other.

Yet, strangely, I hardy ever hear this put forward as a reason for voting Leave.

Instead I hear rubbish like 'if we leave we can have interest rates set by our own country', or 'I'm fed up of the European Court of Human Rights telling us what to do' or 'we'll be forced to adopt the euro' :doh:

imagelost

BubblesNeverDies said:

Madcap, I've had other things to do today, but I'm back briefly. :biggrin:
You said
"If things were absolutely 100% going swimmingly 17.4 million people wouldn`t have voted to leave."

You know as well as I do (although you'd never admit it), that 17.4 million people were conned into believing that the EU was the cause of the financial crash of 2008, subsequent Tory austerity measures, a million Turks were at the border and anything else Farage, Reet-Smugg and his band the ERG (if ever there was a misnomer) et al could think of.

If there had been a referendum prior to the 2008 financial crash do you really believe that Leave would've won.
It was just convenient for all the rabid anti-EU (insert epithet) to blame the EU for everything.

As far as the concrete reasons for remain, Whitehorse mentioned some of them.
But for Chrissake, stop thinking yourself into your little self-sufficient box, we're all on a little rock in space and if we don't get our act together soon we won't be on it much longer.

You keep banging on (and I mean, you really keep banging on) about co-operation and yet you want us out of a fantastic project which is trying to unite millions of people not by force but by choice and which was born out of the ashes of WW2 in an attempt for it never to happen again.

And you keep going on and on about Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin, can you tell me what he actually achieved?

And btw Aslef, Grey and MrsGrey among others have been dismantling all the "vague" reasons that people voted to leave.

Now I need a beer. :biggrin: :ale:

And I know you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" :biggrin:

I did not vote to leave because of financial crash

imagelost

MrsGrey said:

Barney said:

I guess if you want to stay in the EU then you believe articles that suit you; I want to leave so I am more inclined to believe the articles that support my view. It just needs to be sorted sooner rather than later.

Well, anyone can believe whatever they like, of course. Even if it is that the earth is flat.

But if something is proven factually wrong, I think anyone who believes it is wilfully ignorant.

Saying the EU makes us throw away food because it doesn't meet size/shape regulations is on a par with saying I want to stay in the EU because when I get to 60 they'll give me a Harrods food hamper every month and 3 free holidays to an EU destination of my choice.

Both are untrue.

Articles can be 'easily dismissed' if one has no interest in the truth.

The ugly food that now on sale

imagelost

I did not want to be part of a Euro army

IronHerb

Bubbles,- You know as well as I do (although you'd never admit it), that 17.4 million people were conned into believing that the EU was the cause of the financial crash of 2008, subsequent Tory austerity measures, a million Turks were at the border and anything else Farage, Reet-Smugg and his band the ERG (if ever there was a misnomer) et al could think of.

Any proof of that?

imagelost

Burn tonight

ammerinaberdeen

I haven’t been ‘Conned’ by anyone and to suggest that 17.4 million were, is if I may say, a little over the top.
Millions like me had our reasons for doing so and do not recognise most of the slurs aimed at us.
We had a referendum we said leave. We didn’t ask for a deal and certainly not the rubbish of ‘May’s’ Deal.
I’m just an ordinary bloke but if we are, as I feel we are, betrayed by the elite parliamentarians telling us ‘They’ know better than us! Beware!

BubblesNeverDies

I didn't say that the reason people voted leave was because of the 2008 financial crash.
I meant that before then there was very little to complain about the EU apart from frivolous matters like the ban on bent cucumbers.
However after 8 years of the subsequent austerity measures and all the anti-EU propaganda (Daily Fail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, UKIP etc.) the EU was an easy target for the protest vote.


imagelost said:
Burn tonight
Please explain your comment.

imagelost

BubblesNeverDies said:

I didn't say that the reason people voted leave was because of the 2008 financial crash.
I meant that before then there was very little to complain about the EU apart from frivolous matters like the ban on bent cucumbers.
However after 8 years of the subsequent austerity measures and all the anti-EU propaganda (Daily Fail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, UKIP etc.) the EU was an easy target for the protest vote.


imagelost said:
Burn tonight
Please explain your comment.

Yeah I was having a fire in the garden,,, I was burning a box that stainless bin come in,, on the box it had made in the UK,,, and the Union Jack
Took picture of it but will not load on to this site

Barney

'European Union' does not appear on new passports according to reports in the press

TheMadcapLaughs

Whitehorsehammer said:

Madcap said

And the concrete reasons for staying in the EU are................?

For me it is that I am a citizen of Europe and I can travel, work, own property without problem. I feel privilaged to be in other European countries as a European citizen, if we leave I will feel like an outsider. I desperately hope that we get a second referendum and choose to stay.

Sorry not replied sooner, I agree, this does appear to be a positive. Not being an expert I'm not sure how easy it was to do any of the above pre EU. People certainly lived, worked and retired abroad before the EU's inception, but in an ideal world, yes anything that facilitates this is a positive. On the flip side, free movement has deprived poorer countries of talent, money and "bodies" as people will tend to migrate to more prosperous countries exacerbating problems within the countries they have left. FOM and immigration in general is a contentious issue that imo politicians have swept under the carpet. And don't worry, we ain't leaving.

TheMadcapLaughs

Two things I have been thinking about. Gina Miller campaigned tirelessly for parliament to have the final say in regards to brexit, after all, she argued, we live in a parliamentary democracy and it was only constitutional that parliament as a whole have the final say. Why then is she now campaigning for the people's vote. Seems a bit contradictory. Secondly Gina Miller's court case received an almost unprecedented level of media attention, you could barely turn the tv on without Gina being centre stage. At the moment there is a court case proceeding that argues that we have already left the EU. The 29th of March was written into uk law as passed by parliament as the official date. Teresa May and the EU have agreed to extend this date, however, this new date wasn't presented to parliament and new legislation wasn't passed to rescind the original legislation. By uk law, it is argued that we have already left. I would have thought this would be a big story and the chap who has brought the case would be given the same celebrity as Gina Miller. Apparently not.

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

Your recollection of Gina Miller as a meejah darling hardly fits with mine.

If memory serves, she was reviled by the usual suspects, and received death threats (not, I believe from the meejah...).