Brexit

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  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Referendums - a dangerous idea?

    https://daily.jstor.org/are-referendums-good-for-democracy/
    https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/referendums.aspx
    https://www.britpolitics.co.uk/uk-elections-arguments-referendum-vote-democracy
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Cuz

    So you have no problem with the fact that elements of the leadership of the Leave campaign deliberately flouted electoral law, and used 'dark' (i.e. not public) advertising that included outright lies in their campaign?

    You don't think that might be 'flouting democracy'.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    I wonder if the remain side of the result would have been shouting this from the rooftops if the vote had gone the other way, there politicians there supposed to flout the laws
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    edited April 2019
    But Cuz, there's no evidence that the Remain campaign used the dirty tricks that Grey refers to.
    Perhaps they should have, and then I wonder if the leave side would have been shouting it from the rooftops if the vote had gone the other way. :biggrin:
    And btw, we don't elect MPs to deliberately flout the law.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Cuz1 said:

    there politicians there supposed to flout the laws

    So, they can flout the result of the vote, then.... by your logic.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    But Cuz, there's no evidence that the Remain campaign used the dirty tricks that Grey refers to.

    And in fact there's evidence that they didn't. An allegation was made and the Electoral Commission investigated, and rejected the claim.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Cuz

    So that was a 'No', then?

    It's fine if people want to say 'we won, suck it up', but then don't pretend that defending democracy is the issue.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    My view as always been the same to be honest I make no secret I voted to leave because fed up of eu rules and regulations, if remain had been the majority vote I’d have respected the vote and said ah well live with it, but all across the board mps have managed to try veto what the electorate voted for and use scaremongering tactics to try stop/ delay, I don’t care if we leave with mays deal or no deal I just want out end of.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Genuine question - what rules and regulations, specifically, are you hoping will be repealed once we are out of the EU?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    For me I believe we will get better free trade deals for starters
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    So, not about rules and regulations then?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Well the eu wouldn’t be involved in the negotiations if were not in the eu
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    Well, yes. But what regulations are you hoping to see sidelined ... for example, on food standards? If we lower our requirements below certain EU standards, we can get cheap stuff? Are there certain standards you think are unnecessarily high?

    You specifically said that you wanted to see less EU regulation. So are there eu protectionist policies (just for example) that you feel we can ditch when out of the EU that will mean we can negotiate different trade deals on different terms?

    I'm just keen to hear about specifics, as reasons why people want to 'leave' because tbh all I've ever heard from leave voters are vague opinions. Which are valid as opinions, but no more valid than the opinions of those who voted 'remain'.

    Which gets is no further forward to understanding each others positions. (imo)

  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Just because we leave doesn’t mean I’d be happy to let standards or to lower them but we would make our own regulations and rules we don’t need the eu for that surely,
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited April 2019
    Well, as an example, the UK clearly needs a push to deal with air quality standards.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/05/air-pollution-uk-governments-failed-legal-battles-cost-taxpayers-500m

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/14/uk-failed-to-enforce-eu-air-quality-standards-what-will-happen-after-brexit
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Cuz1 said:

    Just because we leave doesn’t mean I’d be happy to let standards or to lower them but we would make our own regulations and rules we don’t need the eu for that surely,

    No, we can make our own., as you say. But you said you were fed up of the EU ones.

    So am I to take it that you don't mind what the regs are, you just object to them being developed through discussion among the EU member states? That the actual rules are fine?
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Cuz, these rules and regulations that you talk about, is it not simply the elephant in the room, otherwise known as FoM i.e immigration?
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Cuz1 said:

    For me I believe we will get better free trade deals for starters

    So who do you think is going to get better deals?

    28 countries negotiating as a single block that make up 18.8% of the world's GDP

    or

    A country that makes up 3.3% of the world's GDP.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    There is a striking vagueness of why Leavers want out of the EU compared with the reasons for remaining.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    And there’s an obsession that those who voted leave voted because of immigration, those who voted remain and some of these people are still friends of mine I’m fine with but I didn’t vote leave because of immigration or any form of racism, me personally I think article 50 will be revoked and we will stay because the politicians are spineless to agree with the electorate
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Cuz, for me the overriding reason to remain is the economy since everything depends on it being strong. With a weak economy the first thing to suffer is public spending - NHS, education, police etc.
    You say that you didn't vote leave because of immigration yet the reasons you have given are vague as shown in the posts and replies from MrsGrey, Grey, Aslef.
    I don't have any problem in admitting that I believe that unrestricted immigration from the EU needs to be addressed simply from the point of overstretched resources and infrastructure.
    However, part of the economy depends on immigration so where will it come from if/when we're out of the EU? The government wants to restrict it to people who have a £30,000pa job to go to although I don't think that goes down too well with the Kent fruit farmers.
    I have no doubt that the EU needs reforming, and I do believe that reform will come. I also believe that if we remain we can be instrumental in effecting that reform.
    We have a louder voice inside the EU than outside.

    You say that "politicians are spineless to agree with the electorate".
    Or you could say it seems that they're growing a spine in resisting (some of) the electorate for the sake of the national interest.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    cuz

    I don't see that it is an obsession.

    I'm sure lots of people didn't have immigration as a reason for voting leave.

    However, it s also clear that some people did have immigration as one of their main reasons, and that some have seen the vote for Leave as an excuse for racist behaviour, and a more public airing of racist views.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Well for me with mixed race grandkids it certainly wasn’t for me, it’s a terrible world we live in if racism is part of a vote to leave and for me the colour, sexual orientation and any other form of racism is wrong on all levels thought I’d clear that up
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    edited April 2019
    I think one of the problems, or perhaps it is the problem, is that people are confusing racism with an objection to immigration.
    It's quite possible to object to unrestricted immigration (from anywhere) on the grounds of it overwhelming resources without there being any racist motive at all.
  • imagelostimagelost
    ASLEFshrugged said:

    Cuz1 said:

    For me I believe we will get better free trade deals for starters

    So who do you think is going to get better deals?

    28 countries negotiating as a single block that make up 18.8% of the world's GDP

    or

    A country that makes up 3.3% of the world's GDP.
    It started when we had pay more then others to be in this club
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    As for reforming the EU I’m at a loss to think of any major impact we’ve had on changing the EU.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    imagelost said:

    It started when we had pay more then others to be in this club

    The EU countries pay an amount roughly in proportion to their GDP so Germany pays most, then France, then the UK, Italy and Spain all the way down to Malta and Cyprus who pay the least.

    Regardless that still doesn't mean that we're going to get better deals as a lone country than we do as part of the "club".
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    edited April 2019
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    There is a striking vagueness of why Leavers want out of the EU compared with the reasons for remaining.

    And the concrete reasons for staying in the EU are................?

    The only reason for staying in the EU is fear of the unknown. The only concrete positive a remainer can give is "it`s not gone too bad for the last 40 years". You can list as many perceived achievements as you like, there is no concrete proof that things wouldn`t have gone equally as well or better if we had been out of the EU. The reasons for staying in are equally as "airy fairy" as the reasons for leaving. If things were absolutely 100% going swimmingly 17.4 million people wouldn`t have voted to leave. Rather than demanding a second referendum why not instead demand the right to a referendum 5 or 10 years hence to rejoin the EU. If things have gone pear shaped then rejoining should win by a landslide. Yes, it may be a mistake to leave, but not one of us knows. MP`s are not standing up for the national interest, they are being cowards.

    "It is only those that do nothing that makes no mistake"
  • Colchester_IronColchester_Iron
    grey_til_I_dye said:

    Well, as an example, the UK clearly needs a push to deal with air quality standards.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/05/air-pollution-uk-governments-failed-legal-battles-cost-taxpayers-500m

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/14/uk-failed-to-enforce-eu-air-quality-standards-what-will-happen-after-brexit

    If you are interested in seeing a raft of countries that fair worse than the UK in the air quality stakes, look no further than..... the EU.

    https://greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2018/11/mapped-europes-most-and-least-polluted-countries

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    Although, given that some of those calculations include amount of waste produced, how much of the land is covered by forest and what % of land and sea is designated as protected area.... and given that the analysis doesn't just cover the EU countries... the picture isn't as simple as you suggest.

    But, in the end, it is beside the point.

    In the EU, the UK will be required to make improvements. outside the EU, it can carry on as it has been. Doing nothing.


    (But, an interesting map - I'm going to bookmark it.)
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