Brexit

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  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Leave still means leave imo
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Bubbles, Grey, I agree but am not surprised by the underhand/illegal way that information is presented and funded. It is nothing new. With the internet and social media it will only get worse. It doesn`t, (imo) call into question the legitimacy of the result, however, because it is impossible to prove how many, if any, people were "duped" into voting leave. My suspicion would be very few, I think most people had made up their minds how they would vote as soon as the referendum was called. What I do know is that the whole weight of the recognised establishment was thrown behind remaining. You would think that with that level of support the remain option would be a foregone conclusion. To me it shows just how divided and fractured this country is, I don`t think the politicians have really taken that lesson on board.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    If a parliamentary candidate had been found to have broken the same electoral laws, there would be an automatic re-run of the vote.

    Would that be seen as a subversion of democracy? Would people claim that it was thwarting the will of the people?
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Madcap

    As I said, for me it is irrelevant as to whether the tactics were successful. They were illegal under electoral law, and the fact that that doesn't trigger an automatic re-run seems scandalous to me, for a decision of such magnitude, when it would be triggered for something comparatively trivial like an MP's seat.

    Cuz

    'Leave means leave' is the easy bit.

    It's the what happens after that is proving tricky.

  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    I looked up "leave" on Google and it had two entries:
    1. go away from
    2. allow or cause to remain

    There wasn't any entry meaning "leave". :biggrin:

    Definition 2. is interesting though. :whistle:
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Grey, I would be fine myself with a re-run now. I`m not sure what good it would do though. In fact I think it would be more divisive. There was never this level of animosity between leavers and remainers before the last one. I also hate a second referendum being referred to as "the peoples vote". Makes my skin crawl.

    https://www.ft.com/content/c3cc086e-b031-11e8-87e0-d84e0d934341

  • Cuz1Cuz1
    There should be another referendum with the choice of mays deal already agreed with the eu or no deal either one would be the right one
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    You cannot impose socialism.
    I agree, socialists got stuff done

    Exactly, the benefits we enjoy today are a direct result of the unions getting together with socialist groups to form the Labour party because they concluded that the only way to effect change was by participating in the democratic process and get representation in parliament.

    The pragmatism (water down their aims and aspirations) of the "social democrats" working with and then later replacing the Liberals gave us pensions, unemployment and disability benefits, council housing, the NHS. things which benefitted millions.

    Anarchists might have been "in the vanguard" but they failed to achieve anything substantial because they wouldn't (or couldn't) compromise their ideals.

    BTW I think it hysterical that Rees-Mogg described Corbyn as "a known Marxist". Maybe he thinks a Marxist is someone who would only ever have one footman.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Just realised that link hasn`t worked. Cuz, I would tend to agree with you, but there is no way the politicians will allow that. The three options that parliament seem comfortable with are revoke article 50, a second referendum, or a second referendum in the guise of a confirmatory vote. I.E. anything but Brexit. Revoking article 50 I would have thought was a no no, although if it were to occur the results would be interesting, so it looks like we are stuck with a second referendum. I am resigned to that fact now. I am angry, but the politicians have this stitched up. God knows what the twonks would do if leave won again, the honourable thing would be to take a long run off a short pier. Honourable :lol:
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef, you are totally correct about ideals, and I think this is why they have had no lasting (commonly known) impact. Their victories, and there have been some, have always been short lived. It doesn`t help from an organisational perspective if you are anti authoritarian. The ideology is also ridiculously fractured, makes it very hard to unite behind anything with a common purpose. :ok:
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Somebody wrote in a paper today saying a referendum is about democracy, to have another vote to try to overrule democracy is contradictory to the word referendum
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    According to the OED

    referendum

    NOUN

    A general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef, your copy and paste cut off the next line. It says: Repeat until a satisfactory answer is reached.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Cuz, which paper would that have been?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    I can find it if you want me to we buy a wide range from the rags as some would say to the guardian/ independent for the pub we run
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Referendums - a dangerous idea?

    https://daily.jstor.org/are-referendums-good-for-democracy/
    https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/referendums.aspx
    https://www.britpolitics.co.uk/uk-elections-arguments-referendum-vote-democracy
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Cuz

    So you have no problem with the fact that elements of the leadership of the Leave campaign deliberately flouted electoral law, and used 'dark' (i.e. not public) advertising that included outright lies in their campaign?

    You don't think that might be 'flouting democracy'.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    I wonder if the remain side of the result would have been shouting this from the rooftops if the vote had gone the other way, there politicians there supposed to flout the laws
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    edited April 2019
    But Cuz, there's no evidence that the Remain campaign used the dirty tricks that Grey refers to.
    Perhaps they should have, and then I wonder if the leave side would have been shouting it from the rooftops if the vote had gone the other way. :biggrin:
    And btw, we don't elect MPs to deliberately flout the law.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Cuz1 said:

    there politicians there supposed to flout the laws

    So, they can flout the result of the vote, then.... by your logic.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    But Cuz, there's no evidence that the Remain campaign used the dirty tricks that Grey refers to.

    And in fact there's evidence that they didn't. An allegation was made and the Electoral Commission investigated, and rejected the claim.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Cuz

    So that was a 'No', then?

    It's fine if people want to say 'we won, suck it up', but then don't pretend that defending democracy is the issue.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    My view as always been the same to be honest I make no secret I voted to leave because fed up of eu rules and regulations, if remain had been the majority vote I’d have respected the vote and said ah well live with it, but all across the board mps have managed to try veto what the electorate voted for and use scaremongering tactics to try stop/ delay, I don’t care if we leave with mays deal or no deal I just want out end of.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Genuine question - what rules and regulations, specifically, are you hoping will be repealed once we are out of the EU?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    For me I believe we will get better free trade deals for starters
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    So, not about rules and regulations then?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Well the eu wouldn’t be involved in the negotiations if were not in the eu
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    Well, yes. But what regulations are you hoping to see sidelined ... for example, on food standards? If we lower our requirements below certain EU standards, we can get cheap stuff? Are there certain standards you think are unnecessarily high?

    You specifically said that you wanted to see less EU regulation. So are there eu protectionist policies (just for example) that you feel we can ditch when out of the EU that will mean we can negotiate different trade deals on different terms?

    I'm just keen to hear about specifics, as reasons why people want to 'leave' because tbh all I've ever heard from leave voters are vague opinions. Which are valid as opinions, but no more valid than the opinions of those who voted 'remain'.

    Which gets is no further forward to understanding each others positions. (imo)

  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Just because we leave doesn’t mean I’d be happy to let standards or to lower them but we would make our own regulations and rules we don’t need the eu for that surely,
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited April 2019
    Well, as an example, the UK clearly needs a push to deal with air quality standards.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/05/air-pollution-uk-governments-failed-legal-battles-cost-taxpayers-500m

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/14/uk-failed-to-enforce-eu-air-quality-standards-what-will-happen-after-brexit
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