The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

thornburyiron

Grey just out of interest, the "we" you refer to is what exactly. Greece where you live or the UK where you don't live.
It has seemed to me from the posts on here that all the expats living in Europe want the UK to stay in but I don't see how the UK voting to leave would affect them directly. If, say, Italy wanted to leave I wouldn't necessarily be campaigning for them to remain because I can't see how it directly impacts on me.

MrsGrey

But if you were Italian, thorn? It would affect you as an Italian in the UK that was outside the EU?

ironmike44

Just out of interest - for any that have access to BBC Iplayer - on Newsnight there is a montage of documentaries made by Michael Cockerell in 1975. Some startlingly clear similarities, and differences!

Loved the bit from Lord McAlpine (who was yes campaign treasurer) - "we used to meet at the Dorchester because a member of my family owned it" - "the budget (for the campaign) was unlimited, money just poured in and we only spent about half of it"

grey_til_I_dye

Thorn

Referring to myself and MrsGrey (hence 'personally')

Free European movement means we have the right to live in Greece without any papers beyond our passport.

In addition, I believe that a UK exit would negatively affect the pound against the Euro (it's already tanked 15 cents in the last 3 months)

For me, whilst the EU organisation is far from perfect, the UK being in it doesn't seem to do us (as in UK citizens) any harm, whilst doing some good.

As I said earlier, I feel it is for the No campaign to offer convincing proof that life outside the EU would benefit the majority of UK citizens.

If they can, I'll vote no, but otherwise, it's yes, assuming I am eligible...

MrsGrey

If the UK were to leave the EU, then we (me and grey) would be potentially be affected by ..

new Greek residency rules/requirements, paperwork, possibly visas

changes to rules on taxation (currently the EU system aims to stop 'double taxation')

possible changes to rule for UK citizens to work or own property in Greece

Would there be changes to vehicle ownership rules/drivers licensing?

Transferring money from UK bank accounts to our Greek bank account is simple - transfers within EU are easy - if UK was out, how would that work?

Internet shopping from companies in UK - currently no customs charges, import duties etc because UK is part of EU.

Medical treatment at state clinics/hospitals would presumably be stopped....

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

All plenty of reasons why the Greys would probably want to stay "in" and I for one wouldn't blame them.

;ok

MrsGrey

Yeah, but that's not all I'm going to base it on, though. Especially as what the 'out future' would look like on a personal level is difficult to know. (Although Brits who were here pre-EU can offer a fairly good idea.) ;ok

thornburyiron

Greys thanks for clarifying what you meant although some of your points still contain more than a modicum of hypothesis and unknowns.
I am one of those who know what it was like pre our joining the EU and given that should the vote be to leave it will take years to determine how it will work I may well not be around when it finally comes to pass so may not be able to enlighten you as to how pre joining and post leaving compares.

MrsGrey

thorn .. and even looking back to pre-EU days, well the world is a different place now so we don't know that the future will be like the past (if 'out') ;ok

krapnotpu

Thorn ;ok that is really where my comments were coming from, I think it will take years for the affects of an out vote to be felt.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

MrsGrey said:

Yeah, but that's not all I'm going to base it on, though. Especially as what the 'out future' would look like on a personal level is difficult to know. (Although Brits who were here pre-EU can offer a fairly good idea.) ;ok

I was clearly fishing for a like or two

What more does man have to do ;lol

baracks_a_hammer

Aka

The way George Osborne deals with the creaking NHS and education systems is to continually rip the heart out of "middle England" - they are the ones expected to pay for it.

Dodger58

I notice the BBC news making a big thing about the 36 Footsie 100 members decided to focus on O2. A bit ironic as O2 is owned by Telefonica a German company. Is it a surprise that they would urge people to vote to stay in?

Tomw85

It is interesting reading everyone's thoughts and views and also heartening to know that the majority on here are giving it proper consideration and not just making knee jerk reactions which I was worried too many people would do.

At the moment I am still on the fence. Part of me thinks that we are better to stay in and try to help reform the EU from within. Although the cynic in me thinks that we will never get anywhere and that too often it seems that Germany or France block what may be best for us.

It is that which then makes me think we would be better off on our own as we can then regain some of the powers that we seem to have lost. But at the same time I don't want us to become a small minded nation closed off to the rest of the world. I also don't want the average person on the street to be left worse off if the EU makes our exit difficult for us.

It is very important for us to find the right balance in retaining our culture and heritage but also contributing, adapting and helping lead the world forward to be a better place for all. I think that London will always be a multicultural city that will draw people in from all over the world. I also think that with new technology and advances coming in if we were to exit it would be easier to remain connected still. Things like visa's and banking are already online and I can only see that becoming more so in the future. If we do leave we will still be a world player but would we be more so if we stayed in?

I was hoping that by writing this down it might help me swing one way more than the other, however for each argument/point I make I can find a counter argument. I think my biggest fear is that each politician or member state of the EU is out to do what is best for them or gives them the most power and not what is alway best for the most people in the long term.

I hope that one day we reach a point that we as a collective always look to do what is best, however unfortunately I don't think that we will ever be rid of the horrible flaw in human nature that is greed which almost always leads to corruption. Anyway that is heading off topic now so will end my ramblings.

thornburyiron

A point I noticed was the Polish PM stating the Cameron deal was far better for Poland and the U.K and Merkle admitting that she and Europe conceded virtually nothing. That's down to Cameron stating at the outset that he wants to stay in whatever the outcome. The Baldrick method of bartering and negotiation.

baracks_a_hammer

Dear Angela

As you know, I'm more than happy for our nation to continue serving under yours.

However, please can you help me create the impression to my gullible electorate that I have really battled hard and secured some fantastic concessions for the UK - ones which my all time idol Margaret Thatcher would have been proud of. Of course I'm more than happy, as discussed for these then to be rescinded as soon as possible, but I just need to get this annoying June 23rd thing out of the way.

Yours always

(Call me) Dave

secrethammersfan

My tuppence worth is that Britain in the EU, but with special exemptions, and a lot of autonomy, will have the same end-result as Britain outside the EU, but with special partnerships and "favoured nation" status. Whether you get a nametag and a party hat, you're still invited to the street party. Putting it bluntly, if the quality of life goes up or down by a few hundred pounds per year, in all likelihood, it won't be because of any other country's influence. EU membership will not affect intelligence sharing, either, so any argument about national security is a load of gentlemen's reproductive organs. Vote in or out, the UK will always be what it is. A separate part of Europe. That's what makes you special! ;hug

OutcastLondoner

Human rights, worker rights etc. are also part of democracy and the EU provides accountability to ensure those standards and values are kept. I don't trust this government to not take us backwards in this regard if we abandon the ECHR.

imagelost

MrsGrey said:

imagelost said:

Stop scare mongring
Give proof are shut up

Is that addressed to people on here, or politicians?



If politicians, is it addressed to both sides or just one?

Mp's

grey_til_I_dye

Government's paper on possible models if the UK leaves the EU, including their reasons why they think it would not be a benefit.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf

EXETERHAMMER

Squeeky bum time tomorrow

MrsGrey

Got my proxy vote sorted ;ok

EXETERHAMMER

I'm personally feeling the European love.

Ravel49

#RomaineSaysRemain

SuzanneClaret

In

Stay

Remain

OutcastLondoner

Sorted my proxy vote when I did the mayoral one. Just hope my sister doesn't Jordan Henderson the ticking part.

MrsGrey

;lol


;nonono

;whome

MrsGrey

Worth reading if you are still undecided - the main issues, the arguments for 'leave'. The facts. The arguments for remain.

The questions to ask yourself.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote

thornburyiron

So biased in favour of remain though it won't help anybody.

MrsGrey

It does, however, offer some actual facts pertaining to the various issues.

Which people who are undecided can consider, and ignore if they like.

Or can look up other facts which they can also weigh in the balance.

Personally speaking, I found nothing that the 'leave' campaign presented to persuade me to change the current situation went beyond rhetoric, racism, bigotry, obfuscation, misinformation and insinuation.