The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

thornburyiron

Even Americans aren't stupid enough to vote him in are they? It just shows how useless Obama has been as a president the last 2 years.

baracks_a_hammer

Thorn

They did manage to vote in George W.

Twice.

Moojor

I'm starting to look in to the actual reasons for staying or leaving as I'm pretty uninformed about any sort of actual facts about the possible outcomes of either.

But currently in the "in" camp, mostly because I can't stand the term "Brexit". Why the hell do we have this need to combine multiple words in to one?

TheMadcapLaughs

As much as I hate to ally myself with the likes of Farage, Duncan-Smith, Gove, Boris, the EDL and the hole screaming gamut of flag waving, jingoistic, insular Trumpesque type people (shudders) I find myself coming down firmly on the "out" side. For as much as I would generally take the opposing view to anything and everything all of the above believe in and stand for, I find the EU, as it currently stands, probably the most undemocratic, stagnant, bloated, gluttonous, behemoth of an "organisation" in the history of such organisations. A single, borderless market, using a single common currency is a simple and worthy idea. It doesn`t need thousands and thousands of grey suits riding on a runaway gravy train to make it work. The level of waste, bureaucracy and for want of a better word gumpf generated by Brussels is mind numbingly staggering. There is one thing I hate above all else, and that is piffle, I am sorry, but the EU is awash with piffle, I would like my country to distance itself from Brussels and this excess of Euorpiffle and then once out take a long hard look at its own layers of needless, pointless bureaucracy, quangos, committees and government and wield the axe accordingly. I have always supported closer links with Europe, however, once the men in grey latch on, it is only a matter of time before these leech like creatures infest, multiply and suck the life out of what should be, and could be a worthy and above all simple animal. For this reason, a big OUT. ;scarf

MrsGrey

So can I put you down as 'undecided'?

Expat_Hammer

;lol

grey_til_I_dye

Eastcote

I absolutely agree that it is the responsibility of those who will vote to inform themselves to the best of their ability.

I also don't think most of them will.

Are you suggesting that people can't be trusted to make the choice?

Yes.

the same people that elect UK Governments every 5 years?

Yes (although given the bizarre nature of the UK election system, what tends to happen is that 2/3 of the people who vote don't end up with the government they tried to elect.)

Are you also suggesting voters vote on party lines?

Yes

grey_til_I_dye

Eastcote

Not sure why?

simonc

thornburyiron said:

Even Americans aren't stupid enough to vote him in are they? It just shows how useless Obama has been as a president the last 2 years.

Make that 8 thornburyiron, biggest political regret i have, voting for him the first time round, only thing he is good at is spending other peoples money

baracks_a_hammer

Well wasn't it all supposed to be Armageddon when we decided not to join the Euro? Look how that turned out.

Moojor

Wait, Gove is for us leaving the EU. That's made my decision easy. No need to do any sort of research.
In for me. Anything that fool believes is a good idea can only actually be a very bad idea for everyone else.

grey_til_I_dye

Mooj

Now that's what I call an informed decision... ;wink

Expat_Hammer

baracks_a_hammer said:

Well wasn't it all supposed to be Armageddon when we decided not to join the Euro? Look how that turned out.

I remember in the early 90's when we tracked the euro, and interest rates went up three times in one day.

Moojor

oh no....Jeremy hunt is for staying in....

SuzanneClaret

;nonono

My brain can't cope with agreeing with him....


NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Giant_Hammer

Moojor said:

Wait, Gove is for us leaving the EU. That's made my decision easy. No need to do any sort of research.
In for me. Anything that fool believes is a good idea can only actually be a very bad idea for everyone else.

No disrespect intended Moojor, but that is what is worrying me. That people will make up their minds simply because they dislike an individual.
I'm ok cos I dislike all politicians. ;wink ;lol

baracks_a_hammer

Giant

Luckily though Giant, there are "questionable" characters on both side of the fence

Mooj though is now outed as a fully signed up member of Sturgeon's fan club ;lol

baracks_a_hammer

Luckily though Giant, there are "questionable" characters on both side of the fence

Mooj though is now outed as a fully signed up member of Sturgeon's fan club ;lol

Giant_Hammer

;lol

Moojor

Giant_Hammer said:

Moojor said:

Wait, Gove is for us leaving the EU. That's made my decision easy. No need to do any sort of research.
In for me. Anything that fool believes is a good idea can only actually be a very bad idea for everyone else.

No disrespect intended Moojor, but that is what is worrying me. That people will make up their minds simply because they dislike an individual.
I'm ok cos I dislike all politicians. ;wink ;lol

Totally agree, which supports Grey's point that this stuff really shouldn't be put out to vote by the public who really aren't going to research it in any way shape or form and just vote for or against based on personal feelings rather than what is best for the country.
Though I jest about voting "in" just because Gove on the "out" side. I do fully intend to research what is the best option. This sort of decision is going to affect my daughter and many generations to come.

Giant_Hammer

Moojor ;ok

baracks_a_hammer

Mooj

By your logic, don't bother with general elections either and let's just settle for a communist state??

MrsGrey

Monarchy? ;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

Dynasty a la Kim Jong ;hmm

MrsGrey

Benevolent dictatorship? ;hmm



;biggrin

SuzanneClaret

Rock, paper, scissors.

Whitehorsehammer

I have many reasons why I shall be voting to stay in, but here are a couple of personal ones.

I have two daughters, both in their late twenties, one works for a Danish company the other for a Belgium company, both are UK based.
They, and others in the company move regularly and freely between the UK and Belgium and Denmark, there is a mix of those nationalities in the offices here and in Europe. They also move goods in their own vans back and forth a couple of times a week. This all works smoothly and has done for years.
If we leave will their Dutch and Belgium colleagues be able to continue working here and will my daughters be allowed to work there with the end of free movement of labour? Also trade tariffs will need to somehow be negotiated for the movement of goods and this will require border checks and no doubt lots of additional paperwork. Both firms are deeply worried that their successful companies could be seriously affected by the change and this is already holding them back on new investment.

Many of my wife's family are farmers and they benefit from farm subsidies which are EU based and calculated. The levels have mostly been set over the years by the pressure of French farmers. I know we pay into the fund but its seems that most farmers (and the NFU) believe that any replacement scheme by the UK government would not be as beneficial as the EU payments. Many farmers (not all) find it hard to keep going and loosing these subsidies would cause many problems.

Just my own views.

claretandbluesky

I have never really believed in democracy - for me it is an idea which makes perfect sense and is on paper totally fair and just, but in practice people vote according to the information provided and this alone means democracy is flawed as he who controls the information holds the key to the vote. It is the reason why all dictators immediately take steps to control information. There are only two other options, these being dictatorship or benevolent dictatorship, but these are questionable as well, not least because the latter may not even exist .

There has through history been astonishing atrocities participated in by whole nations, atrocities that the people themselves could hardly believe when reflecting afterwards, as in the case of Nazi Germany, yet the power of division through information propaganda, the propensity for people to accept what is presented as fact should never be underestimated. Once this is acknowledged democracy can appear a little fanciful in practice.

One way of seeing it is that politics is a part of life and always has been, politics is about power and controlling power has taken different shapes throughout time, currently there is an idea called democracy which is used as a tool for politicians to negotiate power, we accept it as we must, just as people had to accept rule from Kings and Queens, we work within the rules as demanded but do not really believe in the game but decide to exercise our own values in our own small sphere of interconnection, to show kindness, consideration and community. The politicians continue to wrestle for power between themselves.

Swissiron

I used to work in the European Commission and the European Parliament so it might be argued that I am biased. Or it might be argued that on this one I know a bit more of what is going on, although it is now at least 25 years since I left the employ of the EU and struck out on my own.
I lived in England after I left Belgium (in 1989) and in 2004 I moved to Switzerland for a job with a big multinational company in Basel, and, for the record, I moved a couple of miles down the road and across the border back into the EU in France (Alsace) in 2009 when I started to think about going freelance in my chosen profession and occupation which is writing, editing and copywriting.
Anyway with all the afore-mentioned out of the way, while I no longer have the vote (too many years out of the UK) I still feel this issue very keenly and I really do understand many of the arguments for and against. Mrs Swiss, by the way, is a rabid outer - convinced that UK will do better outside than in.
I think the longer term arguments are more important than the shorter term arguments. The key argument that everyone might agree with is whether the UK will have more influence inside than out on world events such as dealing with the US, China, Russia, migrants policy, defence, wars, terrorism etc etc. For me that encompasses most if not all of the other issues. I have to say that staying in makes us stronger in that sense.
Look at it also in football terms. I know that it's not a precise analogy, but every football supporter of almost every British team wants to see their team "play in Europe". For that to happen of course we don't need to be members of the EU but it's significant that this is the level that everyone wants for their foptball team. It's in our blood that we don't stop at Calais. We didn't stop there in 1944 thank God. And As football supporters we dont think we are really champions - like the Man Us of this world - when we win the PL but only when we win the CL.
Being out of Europe will certainly have an impact on foreign players as it will on workers like me who will lose the benefits of being able to use French social services because we had been entitled in the UK, for the money will flow elsewhere, as inevitably there will be extra costs attached to living and working in the EU and vice versa without that brilliant Briritsh contribution to Europe, the single market. Many Brits abroad will also lose their jobs - to Europe we will look a bit like the USA (and if Boris has his way we will deserve it) A more nationalist government in the UK could bring in taxes for foreigners (especially differential property taxes), not possible within the EU, that will make it difficult for cross border employment or recruitment. Jobs that depend on European markets will suffer from marginal changes to the conditions of those jobs. Currency exchange rates will change, again marginally. The EU has to favour its own. Of course it does.
On the other hand - we were never in Schengen so no change there on passports and queues at borders. We never had the euro, which arguable was a big Brussels mistake, I'll grant that. It wasn't necessary for us but we were right not to join at the time, but we wont be right about that forever. We have always been able to decide these things. I go across 3 or 4 national borders a week (Switzerland IS in Schengen although not in the EU) and I havent been stopped or searched in over 5 years. I feel a sense of shame and disgrace when I see the Calais situation, caused by us not accepting our responsibilities as a civilised nation and apparently Christian country. these people are not terrorists they are exyctly like you me and Dimi Payet, but unfortunately it represents a nasty anti-foreigner and certainly anti-immigrant policy that this government seems to think is fair play. I definitely don't. If we were more Europe-minded it would be better but no government has really bothered for two generations to praaise the benefits of a united Europe. We (or our fathers) all know what a divided Europe looks like. I hope the next generation won't lose the memory altogether because we are not doing well in keeping it alive..
I feel sad now, I think there's now a chance that we will leave the EU if we are not careful and lose our marbles, and I think Cameron is the most opportunistic PM ever. He has risked the future of this country to try and keep the Tory party together. He and Boris deserve each other.
My last point - something my father told me at the time of the last referendum (which was the first time I voted in the UK (to stay in BTW)) was this. Consider, outside the UK, who
Sorry to be so long. And I don't even have a vote, the UK is the only country in Europe to disfranchise its nationals when they live abroad for a while.

claretandbluesky

A very well written post -thank you.

Were I unsure that would certainly of given me pause for thought. I had not reflected on just how this whole referendum business has come about due to a split in the Tory party.