The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50
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Comments
This is why this whole vote is truly unique. So even someone like Sir Stuart Rose, will in essence only be able to "guess" at what will happen if the UK exits, the same as any ordinary man or woman on the street.
Every person should ideally try to separate the fact from the spin to come to an informed view one way or another. Sadly in the world of spin and PR we live in, this may be hard to achieve.
It isn't just spin that is the problem, though, imo.
There will be an awful lot of people voting who are either uninformed or ill-informed, who nonetheless have the right effectively to determine fiscal policy for decades to come.
That doesn't seem great, to me.
By the way, does anyone know how the vote will work?
Will they simply add up all the ins and outs for the whole of the U.K? Is that not the only true way of ensuring every single vote counts?
I haven't really seen a genuine argument for leaving that isn't based on nonsense from a tabloid.
In terms of healthcare, for example, the NHS, one of our national treasures, was around long before we entered the EU
Yes but healthcare when travelling I think is easier because of the EU. It means it's easy to go work abroad, for example, and not have to worry about your healthcare so much.
When jobs are low, the EU is a great way for young people to find other opportunities and get skills in the same way many from Europe do when they go to the UK. It isn't hard, I did it (though not inside the EU) and think it should be considered more. Though language-teaching must be given more importance.
By the way, in terms of trade, the UK doesn't just benefit from trade with the EU itself but also parts of the world that have special trade agreements with the EU as a bloc. There would be an awful lot of trade negotiations to be done.
Simply because i cant trust the Tory's to do a British Bill of Rights in favour of workers. (Sick Pay / Paternity Leave / E.T.C)
We are in a global economy in or out doesn't matter, if China or USA go down we go down with them.
Our NHS is dependant on Immigration, a decline in British doctors and nurses and shutting shop will not solve that when they are paid naff all to begin with then introduce a policy where Nurses have to get into debt to become a Nurse instead of a grant. Tory Forced Privitisation.
Anyone who thinks we will save the 350m or whatever bogus figure is made up is living in a dream world, Tory pockets will be lined and we will end up spending double that to keep businesses in the UK instead of flout off to the EU. We wouldn't be able to get a consensus with the rest of the EU over taxation meaning there will never be any changes in taxation to prevent businesses leaving and companies like Facebook / Google / Amazon / Apple will get a away with paying little to no Tax.
(Citizens, UK residents, nationals, nationals resident abroad etc)
As its a referendum, It will by definition (I think) be one person one vote, then add 'em all up.
Respect all the points you have raised ;ok
For a lot of people it will come down to the people's views on how things might be different (or otherwise) on the issues which matter to them most. Which in turn will be different issues from one person to the next.
Fascinating and nerve-wracking all rolled into one!
I think I'd be way more open to the idea if the discourse on leaving was more genuine, rather than driven by scare-mongering like this from IDS today:
Unfortunately, we have a very skewed press and that is going to damage the debate.
Those who want to prove we should leave haven't offered an alternative to Cameron's proposal. They don't show how it won't be so bad to leave. They're trying to scare us out of it. Sadly, I have a feeling they'll win.
He might even view going for Out and winning as showing he can be better than Cameron...
On travelling abroad we will have to show our passports at the port of entry to the EU and if Shengen is still in place we won't have to show again until we exit the EU (i.e. back to the UK). So effectively no difference to the traveller.
On who will get to vote, that's an interesting one, surely it should be British citizens/passport holders.
I still find it interesting that Nicola Sturgeon doesn't see the irony of wanting to leave the UK in order to gain Independence, but wanting the option for Scotland to join the EU if the UK votes to leave.
Plus, with the EU, aren't there agreements in place with other govts for favourable terms (such as no visas required) which will not apply if UK leaves (Until any new bilateral agreements are established? Is that really the case? I think the 'no internal borders' only applies if you are from one of the member states? I'm not sure of that though. But what if they are living/have lived abroad? Still let them vote?
And what about people who it will affect because they live there and have permanent leave to remain (or whatever its called) - with homes, businesses and families, paying taxes etc. The decision will affect them just as much - in fairness can you exclude them? (No taxation without representation!!)
But I'm still in.
For me this a no brainer & I don't even know how we got to this stage in the first place.Sure,there are things wrong with the EU & it definitely needs an overhaul but it's in our interests as a nation to remain a member.
On a personal level it would be a disaster.I live & work in Spain & at present have the choice of where i live & work.If we vote to leave the choice goes.
Yes it is more hassle, but it is still possible. The reference to the NHS is also interesting as many of the 'immigrants' staffing the NHS are from outside the EU anyway, so no difference at all.
Schengen calls for free movement within the EU with no border controls. The assumption is that people entering the Schengen area can then move freely - so yes it is the case.
I believe that ALL British Citizens of voting age should have the right to vote, wherever they live, so yes that includes you ;biggrin
That's not the public at large is it.
and neither do I but if Boris likes something I dont.
That's not the public at large is it.
The public at large do not / will not be as informed as possible as the question and resulting decision are critical to get right.
Can we be on a break?
Some good points made on either side and a very good thread.
Still definitely IN as out just seems to globally regressive to leave. I tend think in 50 years the EU will still be here as it is too deeply entrenched to fail now, so our children or grandchildren would at some point be likely need apply again, and would do so from a very different position that we have now.
[unless of course you're not voting the same as me ;biggrin ]