The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

baracks_a_hammer

TBC, Suzanne, TBC !!!

MrsGrey

I don't think Boris's influence in the minds of the voters outside London is very significant tbh

MrsGrey

I don't vote according to personalites, but if I ever found myself agreeing with Gove on anything, I'd probably have to have a word with myself.

thornburyiron

The thing is I bet 95% of posters on here cannot remember what it was like before we joined the "Common Market" as they're too young so only know what's happened since.
The common market seemed a good idea until Germany decided that it was a back door route to rule Europe and determine how everybody does things how they want it.
I'm leaning towards out but would be more inclined to say in if there was more transparency about how things are run.
Part of the problem lies with successive UK governments and judiciary who blindly obey every dictat issued by the EU whilst the rest only abide by the bits that suits them.

grey_til_I_dye

baracks

I don't think it is irrelevant.

I don't believe that 'the people' have the right to choose, regardless of how stupid that choice might be.

I don't expect the majority of those who vote to be properly informed, which is why I don't really support the idea of a referendum for this, or indeed any issue.

simonc

Seems to me there is allot of scaremongering to keep the UK in, biggest problem in my mind with the EEC is its bureaucracy & the new deal does not appear to address that.
OUT OUT and more OUT - Security info will still be shared as its in everyone's best interest, trade will continue as people and companies buy products and services based on their price and capabilities not where they are made.
Biggest benefits - Don't have to pay to for FIFA like Brussels bureaucracy and French farmer subsidies.

baracks_a_hammer

Grey

I'm not sure I agree.

When we admitted originally, I think this was via a referendum? What they were voting on back then is a quantum difference compared to what the EU is now. Only right therefore (IMO) that the public once again has that voice.

OutcastLondoner

MrsGrey, I think you might be mistaken there. How Boris votes isn't important, but he's a good campaigner.

He does have influence outside of London and I think he'll be influential in the South at large. Generally, he didn't become Mayor with much of the inner London vote but with the Greater London areas that cross over into the various counties. So I think that shows is popularity is actually beyond London.

MrsGrey

outcast, you could be right ;ok

I was thinking more of 'oop norf' though, rather than 'darn sarf' - I should have been more specific.

Dodger58

claretandbluesky said:

Still definitely IN as out just seems to globally regressive to leave.

Claret, this is the bit I find strange you clearly embrace the need for a Global approach, but the EU is insular and is actually very poor at acting globally. They are holding us back.

I work in Electronics in my current company we are a multinational global leader, 60% of our sales comes from Asia Pacific (mainly China, Korea and Taiwan), 22% from the Americas and all of 18% from Europe.

My previous company, 20 people, 40% is UK based, 55% US/Asia, 5% Europe.

I recognise that not all industries/markets are the same, but there's a big world out there and its currently running away from the EU. A little less procrastination from the EU and we can make ourselves more successful - all in my onion of course
;ok

MrsGrey

;hmm

But will leaving the EU (and thus its negotiated trade agreements with China and USA, say) mean your company will be trading at a disadvantage or facing quotas/higher tariffs etc

For example, new trade deals with USA seem unlikely, or at least not too favourable, according to US govt. (And US represents the 2nd biggest market after the EU for UK companies.)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/29/us-warns-britain-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu

OutcastLondoner

Mrs Grey ;ok I think you might be right though the energy he'll give to the campaign (which already has more momentum imo) might help even up north.

I've watched him several times in Mayor's Question Time for work and it's scary how he's able to joke his way through life.

Dodger58

Mrs Grey,
No it won't in either case you highlight - it would actually help make the US less competitive globally.

baracks_a_hammer

The company I work for has a fantastic relationship with suppliers from both witihn Europe, including Greece and from outside, including China.

I have to say though, there is a scandalous amount of red tape and bureaucracy associated with us importing from our EU cousins, and practically none if we import from outside the EU.

We actually have to pay for an external resource to deal with some of this EU red tape - is this how it was supposed to be? Because it is far smoother and easier for us to deal with companies outside the away from that point of view. Has David Cameron's "deal" meant that this farcical situation will change - I'd really like to know, I really would.

baracks_a_hammer

I meant to say "outside the EU" but find it difficult to edit!!!

Dodger58

Barracks, no the bureaucracy will remain and the associated costs that helps make the EU uncompetitive. The deal is meaningless in the scheme of things - in my onion of course. And you are 100% correct, the level of bureaucracy for dealing with the rest of the world is far lower ...

imagelost

You give me or my mates the vote to in or out
The answer is out
Not sure what like evel the polls are on !!!!
are whom there talk too but it's not me area
The interpo thing ,,, the law is the law
And free trading
Stop scare mongring
Give proof are shut up

grey_til_I_dye

Eastcote

Are you honestly saying that you expect the majority of people who vote on this issue to have fully informed themselves?

You might just as easily be asked, where is your evidence for that statement?

thornburyiron

When you get a PM who goes into talks saying "we need to renegotiate but I'm strongly in favour of staying in anyway" what sort of deal are you likely to get.
Would you go to buy a house and say I will offer you X but I'm going to buy it anyway and expect to get it for X.

imagelost

We want out

imagelost

If not why give us the vote?

baracks_a_hammer

I'll give another example of the EU at its best. We need to pay anti-dumping duty on products supplied by one of our far Eastern suppliers. However as this supplier is on an approved list the level of this duty payable is reduced. This supplier had the "temerity" to change its legal name which then meant a whole raft of EU paperwork was required to keep the lower duty. The paperwork has been sitting on the desk of some pencil pusher in Luxembourg for TWO years unactioned meaning we continue to wrongly pay the higher duty (which we have to pass on to the UK public). Moreover, we have no idea who to complain to!! Will your new deal finally get us our (rightful) lower duty Mr Cameron?

MrsGrey

imagelost said:

Stop scare mongring
Give proof are shut up

Is that addressed to people on here, or politicians?



If politicians, is it addressed to both sides or just one?

PrestonHammer1974

I wasn't sure beforehand but the EU and Angela Merkel in particular made such a horlicks of the refugee crisis that has tipped me towards the OUT camp.

OutcastLondoner

claretandbluesky

I think fear will play a huge part in how people vote as it is a large motivator for human beings in all decision making. I also don't believe many people will be informed when voting with regard figures etc, these figures may not even be available. It may come down to headlines and fears.

The In camp will say we need stay in because if we don't we will be at a huge disadvantage with regard trade and relations with our neighbours, which will cost jobs. The immediate aftermath would result in the markets quite possibly raising our borrowing rates, which could result in a run on sterling as well at some point and interest rates rising either way. It will also likely bring about another Scottish referendum in the not too distant future and break up the UK.

The out camp will likely play on the fear that without taking control of our borders again we will be over run with migrants who will bleed us dry. They will suggest we will no longer exist as sovereign nation in control of its own laws and decision making. That the UK along with all other EU nations will become a mixture of all of Europe governed by Brussells.

On the positive side the IN's will say we can prosper in Europe without taking on ever closer union and be able to reap the benefits and cope quite readily with the downside.

The out's will suggest we can have the best of both worlds in that we can have a trade deal but control our own borders and laws.

There is one aside with regard the Scottish question that is interesting. The SNP suggest that leaving the EU should trigger a new referendum, so there will be many pro independence supporters voting to leave. But should the results show an overwhelming appetite for leaving within Scotland itself it will be hard to claim Scotland wants to be part of the EU and should be able to leave us to do so.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

claretandbluesky said:

There is one aside with regard the Scottish question that is interesting. The SNP suggest that leaving the EU should trigger a new referendum, so there will be many pro independence supporters voting to leave. But should the results show an overwhelming appetite for leaving within Scotland itself it will be hard to claim Scotland wants to be part of the EU and should be able to leave us to do so.

The same though had occurred to me, if say 60% of Scots vote to leave the EU then how can the SNP call for another independence vote based on the UK leaving the EU.

TBH I do not think Salmond/Sturgeon have much credibility at the moment, I would like someone to grill them about where they think Scotland would be now if they had got independence, given the crash in the oils prices. During the debates it was clear they based a huge amount of their finances on income from 'Scottish' oil. When it was put to Salmond (I think it was) about what would happen if the price dropped below a certain level (which it did long ago) and he just laughed it off - so there was no alternative.

back on track...... I am fence sitting at the moment, trying to look beyond the rubbish being spouted by both sides.

If you choose to believe the 'In' camp, if we say out 3 million people will lose their jobs almost overnight etc., etc. - utter tosh, there will be a two year exit negotiation period with the UK Govt reps and two appointed by the EU (probably a German and a French persons, after which it will go to the EU Parliament for a vote (this could go back and forth for another year or two) before the deal is reached. Does anyone seriously think anything will change much before that? Trade will continue under the existing rules during that period, also we have a trading deficit with the EU, does anyone think the companies in the EU are going to turn their backs on all the money they earn from us - of course they won't.

I am also fairly confident that where there is any signs of trade being affected, the UK businesses will be looking to strengthen and increase existing trade with countries and partners outside of the EU to compensate for the losses.

On the other hand, I am concerned that some areas where there has been improvement through EU Legislation may be negatively affected (Workers rights/equalities, Environmental legislation etc.).

One thing that does irk me is the people in power in other countries throwing their weight around like Prominent German MP Gunther Krichbaum who said the UK “cannot survive” on its own and warned of devastating trade tariffs on British exports should Britain vote to leave the union and the American who said something regarding trade as well - unfortunately one comment I heard more than once was that if anything it reinforced the reasons to vote out.

thornburyiron

The US should keep their mouths shut. They are the most insular nation on earth and wouldn't consider any kind of union with countries bordering them.

chicagohammer

everything has a silver lining - if we do vote ourselves out of the EU - maybe we can turn to the special relationship we have with the USA and President Trump.

;sofa

AdMeus_CaputFilius

chicagohammer said:

everything has a silver lining - if we do vote ourselves out of the EU - maybe we can turn to the special relationship we have with the USA and President Trump.

;sofa

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! ;run