Moyes In or Moyes Out

Fortuneseeker

alderz, Someone needs to put a tail on whoever scouts for Brighton and then steal their transfer targets. There was a story we had a look at Caicedo before he joined them?

OldCastleSwift

alderz said:

Deanscaleshammer said:

The top teams, usually with the most money, can buy the best talent and play possession based football without too much risk.

If you aren't one of them then it seems like a high risk strategy to say you are going to beat them at their game with less expensive, less talented players.

I guess it depends on expectations? For me, most important is to survive in the division and hope for a good position, cup run etc. I am less worried about the tactics and nuances of play. If we perform well, I love to see it but not at the expense of the result.

I trust Moyes, based on my preferences. I can completely get that if you have a different view of risk or different preferences you might want a different manager.

Brighton can do it, with fewer resources than us.

I do get the whole “survival at all costs” mentality, but if all we want to do is grind out results and finish mid table forever and maybe have a cup run every few years, what’s the point? We aren’t going to win the league, or much of anything, realistically. So I want to at least enjoy watching us play, personally.

Yeah, I think if we played passive, defensive football but won a trophy doing so then the performances wouldn't matter so much. Likewise, if we finished every season 10th but played exciting and entertaining football, then some of the defeats might be forgiven.

The problem I think we've had in the league over the last 18 months is that we haven't played an exciting brand of football, nor have the results been there. City are the obvious other extreme to that, whose levels I accept are unachievable for us, but I don't think Moyes has struck a good enough balance between performances and results.

Europe has been a bit different, certainly in terms of results, but even then I wouldn't say we've played a particularly expansive style of football, even the the ECL this season.

alderz

FWIW I’m not one to think that the only entertaining style of play is possession based. I just like to see us look dangerous!

OutcastLondoner

I actually think possession football can be really boring and a lot of the time it isn't entertaining watching Brighton. It wasn't watching Wolves under Lage, who seemed (when I watched them) to be happy keeping the ball without much cutting edge.

Watching us counter attack was thrilling but we need to figure out how to play when teams don't allow us that space. Liverpool have been pretty good at being a relentless, fast-attacking force without always wanting possession. Of course, we don't have a Salah or Mane but something like that approach would be good.

I think what I struggled with this season was not as much how we played with the ball but how we played without it. I personally don't think you can really play that possession football where you try to break down the opposition with intricate play unless you're winning the ball back early. But we seemed to be still defending very deep and waiting for the ball to come to us and think that was the problem. We were halfway between a counterattacking system and possession-based system.

Bazshuayi

Liverpool were a high energy/press, fast break team that devasted the opposition most of the time. If course you have to have the right players, fitness and mentality for that. However, when in the lead, a lot of the time they played slower possession football to work their way up the pitch. There was a lso a transition to more possession and less reliance on the break. But again, if you have the players then you have the ability to have different systems depending on the game and the opposition.

I dont really care what sort of things we employ. I am old school West Ham and entertainment is very high on the list of wants.

Deanscaleshammer

On checking, Brighton have had 4 seasons flirting with relegation followed by a 9th and 6th place.

Bazshuayi

Because they couldnt score most of the time despite playing good football

Moojor

In

MrsGrey

Yup.

steve

Yes

Lukerz

In, as always

MrsGrey

Why laughing, bubbles?

chicagohammer

Do not wish to spoil such a great night, but for me, I still feel his race is done and tonight’s result will enable him to go out on a deserved high

So no change from me, I would still like to see a fresh face in charge next season

BubblesNeverDies

MrsGrey said:

Why laughing, bubbles?

Oops, pesky accidental swipe. I'll remove it.

OldCastleSwift

Although I can see the argument for keeping him, I still think he should go.

The result was obviously great last night, but the performance was still disappointing. I think anyone would be hard pushed to say that we deserved the win over the 90 minutes, because I thought for all of their cheating Fiorentina played the better football. Some will argue that Moyes got the tactics spot on because we won the game, but for me our performance was far too similar to what we've seen throughout the league campaign and I don't see how Moyes can change that.

It may be controversial, and I'll probably get pelters, but I actually think with the squad we have and the opposition we faced throughout the competition, we won it in spite of Moyes, rather than because of him. Had we sacked him in November following that Leicester defeat I still think we had a very good chance of winning the ECL under someone else. We'll obviously never know and, like I say, I will understand if Sullivan allows Moyes to see out his contract at least.

I've never really warmed to the guy, and have rarely enjoyed our football under him during the last 18 months, but on a human level it was lovely to see him and his dad celebrating last night and I am actually pleased that he's finally won something. It's probably something that nags at you after 25 years in the game but whatever happens in the future, he is now a European trophy winner and that can never be taken away.

Fortuneseeker

OCS, Seems it's not so good news for a few of us?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12173303/David-Moyes-stay-West-Ham-manager-season-Europa-Conference-League-win.html

OldCastleSwift

Yeah, I saw elsewhere that Sullivan is happy for him to stay on. Moyes certainly won't walk so he's here for another year at least (unless, maybe, Celtic can turn his head).

It'll be what it'll be. I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see our football improving unless we buy players that completely suit Moyes' tactics.

Fortuneseeker

OCS, Like he did last year, you mean! 😉

OldCastleSwift

Fortuneseeker said:

OCS, Like he did last year, you mean! 😉

And that's kind of my point. He needs to improve in the transfer market. Spent big on Vlasic and binned him off 12 months later because he didn't really fit. Rumours are Scamacca is going back to Italy after a year because he didn't really fit. Paqueta has obviously come on a lot this season, but I don't think he's the player that Moyes thought he was signing.

If Moyes is staying, we need pace across the front line for the counter, and a striker capable of running the channels.

buffybegood

OldCastleSwift said:

Paqueta has obviously come on a lot this season, but I don't think he's the player that Moyes thought he was signing

I think he might be now, but it's taken most of the season to start to show it, imo.

Fortuneseeker

I was agreeing with you OCS. He had his say last season and we ended up with a really good striker who we are now reliably informed doesn't fit his style of play. A style of play that, last night aside, a lot of fans do not like. The team needs upgrades again in a few positions IF we are to progress further.

OldCastleSwift

Fortuneseeker said:

I was agreeing with you OCS. He had his say last season and we ended up with a really good striker who we are now reliably informed doesn't fit his style of play. A style of play that, last night aside, a lot of fans do not like. The team needs upgrades again in a few positions IF we are to progress further.

👍

Lukerz

Scamacca isn’t (IMO) a really good striker.

OldCastleSwift

Got to question why we dropped £35m on him then.

Seems like he was either a very expensive punt; did we fail to do the due diligence before signing off on the deal?

As mentioned before, whichever way you look at it Moyes is arguably at fault. If Scamacca's not a good striker, but Moyes has still agreed to the deal, then his judgement is in question. If Scamacca is a really good striker, then Moyes has failed to get the best out of him.

Injuries obviously haven't helped, but if it's true that he's going in the summer, then it's another example (alongside Vlasic) of Moyes - and/or the club as a whole - not really doing enough research into the players we sign, IMO.

We know from previous managers that Sullivan has, in the past, just bought players without the manager's knowledge or consent, but Moyes has stated that he has the final say on who comes in so taken at face value, he's responsible for Vlasic and Scamacca coming in for a combined £65m.

I think we've seen in flashes that Scamacca is a good footballer. I think he has very good technique and can finish really well, but maybe he's just not suited to either the PL, or Moyes' tactics.

Lukerz

I think sometimes you buy a player & they don’t turn out as you hope. That’s it. He had some talent based on his record in Italy prior to signing, but it was basically a one-season CV & we took a bit of a gamble on him hoping he could replicate it here. He just doesn’t look like a PL level striker, to me.

Moyes has also been involved in the signings of Dawson, Bowen, Soucek, Paqueta, Benrahma, Aguerd, Coufal, Zouma - these are clearly very good players who form the majority of our starting 11. Jury is still out on the likes of Kehrer, Emerson, Cornet, Ings, Downes. You’re always going to get a Scamacca or a Vlasic.

OldCastleSwift

Yeah, I accept that not every signing will work. It's just that we waited so long for a striker, and all the noise from Moyes was that we were waiting to find the right one that would be as good as, or better than, Antonio - a delay that arguably cost us league places - only to sign a striker that 'isn't really good' or not PL standard.

I would have hoped that after 18 months of searching for Haller's replacement, we'd have made sure that whoever came in was good enough for the league, and was well suited to Moyes' tactics.

alderz

I don’t buy that Scamacca isn’t a good striker. He doesn’t suit a style of play that requires him to run the channels, ie Antonio’s game. I think he’s quality, and I think the period of time before Paqueta’s injury showed that they can have a very fruitful partnership. I want him to be the main man next year, personally.

Areola; Coufal Zouma Aguerd Emerson; ?? - ??; Bowen Paqueta ??; Scamacca

If those ?? are filled in correctly, I think we could have another great year. I read yesterday that we’re apparently interested in Harvey Barnes, James Ward-Prowse, Joao Palinha and Edson Alvarez with the Rice money. If those signings came off I think we’re in a very strong position.

Lukerz

Barnes on the left, two new CMs. Still not sure about the defence.

OldCastleSwift

I think Barnes Scamacca Bowen would be a good combination up front, if we played with a bit more attacking intent.

I agree about the defence; Zouma's injury record means we need a third CB that is good enough to start, because Zouma will in all likelihood miss large parts of the season. If that's Kehrer, fair enough, but then I think we need a new RB because I don't like the idea of Kehrer being bounced around again. Let him settle in one position.

If Scamacca does go, I have no idea who comes in. Ings isn't 'that' striker either so we're back into the conversation as to whether Moyes tries to go possession based again or sticks to what he knows with the counter, but this makes Ings more redundant and leaves us needing possibly two strong, pacy strikers.

Not sure if we're waiting for our new DoF before we make these decisions. If so, I hope he's announced soon so we can crack on. Pre-season isn't actually that far away.

thornburyiron

A striker is a striker is a striker. Give them the opportunities and they will score a good proportion of them. I doubt you get to be Italy’s striker but be unable to play in the PL. He’s been unfortunate with illness and injuries.
He’s a different type of player to Antonio, the main difference is he’s a footballer and I’d trust him far more on one to ones than Antonio.
Antonio is ideal for games where we need a battering ram.