The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

Whitehorsehammer

pardew. I think May has been very shrewd putting pro leave in charge of sorting out how leaving may work, when they find out how difficult it would be and start to backtrack Mrs May can say, it's the pro leave that are now saying this is not a good idea, not me.

claretandbluesky

I am not sure how optimistic about the outcome I am Whitehorse but this is my hope, that Boris and co are forced to engage properly with their EU counterparts, begin to build relationship which prevents them simply throwing stones at them, work out that perhaps it wasn't the best idea after all, add in to that some assistance from the EU in reforming themselves in this time and we may have something resembling the best for all parties with regard the EU national interest and the EU's interest. As in my opinion it's hard to see how this current trajectory is going to help either party, and paths that do this are not usually followed. Often you get a deal in which only one part benefits, often both but very few deals where no one benefits.

Yeoldhammer

UK will not be like Canada because I don't think the UK will exist soon. England will become a tinpot nation with not much to offer.

IronHerb

;doh

PrestonHammer

NEoldiron

Pards, no idea what you're talking about. ;hmm

Tomw85

I think you need to put a 'no' after 'they have' in the third line. Other than that it makes sense to me.

To be honest I actually think that the original comment by Yeold is in need of more explanation than Pards response.

If we keep talking to country and economy down then it is more likely to drop. I have a colleague who is so down about it and is talking that way to her clients that she is now losing business. Then on the other hand there are those of us that are getting on with things and it has been business as normal for now (as much as can be with all that has happened).

Yeoldhammer

Scotland will go. If this happens. The UK idea will go with it.

Our financial services will be dismantled very quickly when EU nations decide to not use the UK financial hub, along with the new Banking investment systems being created in China and so on. There is a reason why people say you should start learning Mandarin for the future because that's where the business world is going.

Yeoldhammer

lol, they will get another vote, as soon as the Scottish public vote in another round of SNP members. It will give them a mandate to call for another referendum because Scotland as a country voted to Remain ahead of Leave (in the EU referendum). I don't share your view that you think you will be able to tell Scotland to put up and shut up. It will not happen.

ASLEFshrugged

Suze & Pards - before the 2015 election Cameron said if he won he wouldn't stand for a third term as Prime Minister but he would serve the full five years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32022484

Canada signed a free trade agreement with USA and Mexico in 1994, the North American Free Trade Agreement or NAFTA. It doesn't allow free movement of labour but it abolished tariffs on goods and services.

Whitehorsehammer

Scotland voted in it's independance referendum to remain part of the UK as it was part of the EU, if they had known they would be taken out of the EU I think the outcome would have been the other way.

Yeoldhammer

Of course she can block it, like she has the power to Block the Brexit referendum result with the rest of parliament. But they can't side line the democractic wishes of the public because they would simply lose face and take one hell of a beating in the next election Lib Dem style.

Yeoldhammer

Then good luck containing a Riot.

Tomw85

I am still not so sure that it would be a guarantee that Scotland would vote to leave the UK. I have family up there and at lot of people are not keen on that idea at all.

TheMadcapLaughs

Tomw85 said:

I think you need to put a 'no' after 'they have' in the third line. Other than that it makes sense to me.

To be honest I actually think that the original comment by Yeold is in need of more explanation than Pards response.

If we keep talking to country and economy down then it is more likely to drop. I have a colleague who is so down about it and is talking that way to her clients that she is now losing business. Then on the other hand there are those of us that are getting on with things and it has been business as normal for now (as much as can be with all that has happened).

;clap

And cheer up chaps, it`s not all doom and gloom:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/690191/Britain-ten-Brexit-trade-deals-lined-up-economic-powerhouses

A little bit of positivity is what`s required. Come on, where`s the famous British stiff upper lip. I didn`t get where I am today...........................

Whitehorsehammer

Tomw85 I also have realtives up there and they are staunghly pro remaining as EU citizens with all of the benefits that brings (as do I). I think that with the fear of being taken out of the EU against the wishes of the majority they will vote to leave the UK.

ASLEFshrugged

Ye Old - the Scottish parliament elections were in May, SNP won 63, down 6 on 2011, two short of an overall majority. The next election won't be until 2021.

If Scotland decides to hold another referendum on independence I don't believe there's anything the UK government can do to stop it.

Tomw85 - a lot of people up there weren't keen on leaving the EU

SuzanneClaret

ASLEFshrugged said:

Suze & Pards - before the 2015 election Cameron said if he won he wouldn't stand for a third term as Prime Minister but he would serve the full five years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32022484

Canada signed a free trade agreement with USA and Mexico in 1994, the North American Free Trade Agreement or NAFTA. It doesn't allow free movement of labour but it abolished tariffs on goods and services.

Thank you.

Tomw85

Whitehorsehammer said:

Tomw85 I also have realtives up there and they are staunghly pro remaining as EU citizens with all of the benefits that brings (as do I). I think that with the fear of being taken out of the EU against the wishes of the majority they will vote to leave the UK.

Whitehorse, I am sure that there are. I was trying to say that in my opinion it will not be a land slide to leave as some people are predicting. A lot of the enthusiasm to leave disappeared after the first referendum and although if there is a second vote you may get pro EU remainers voting to leave the UK it is by no means guaranteed.

NEoldiron

This is what keeps coming to mind when I read the leavers' posts


https://youthworkable.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/shoved-head-into-sand.gif

Whitehorsehammer

Agreed Tomw85, nothing is guaranteed, Scotland may not even have a second referendum but I think there will be a lot who really don't like the idea of being taken out of the EU against their wishes.

IronHerb

Whitehorse,

You don't have to be Scottish to feel that way....

imagelost

Herbs ;clap

Tomw85

Whitehorse - I would be surprised if there wasn't given the % in vs out at the referendum. What we need to do now is come up with a plan and hopefully get trade deals agreed that the majority of Scotland can get behind and as such be happy to stay.

NEoldiron, one could also say the same about remainers who seem to have no concerns about the ever closer union that the EU is heading towards and which they have openly stated that they want to push ahead with despite unrest about that in a number of counties in the EU.

I have refrained from responding to some of your previous posts as I didn't want to get into a debt with you as we clearly have different views and would be unlikely to agree, however I would ask that you show a little more respect to people that did vote out. As has been shown in the many posts here a lot of people did do their own research and didn't just fall for the headline quotes from some of the politicians.

Whitehorsehammer

Tomw85 You said "What we need to do now is come up with a plan" Agreed, and then ask do we still want to leave.

One of the concessions the UK have is we will not join in any closer union.

PrestonHammer

Whitehorsehammer

I problem with that is another government gets in and joins us up anyway. I don't really trust politicians.

Tomw85

I voted out and still back my decision, however I do agree that there should have been a third option on the ballet, vote to leave if a better deal cannot be agreed. That would have been my preferred option, however both Cameron and the EU failed to realise just how many people had had enough of the EU and his negotiations offered us very little.

The concessions we have were slowly being eroded and I believe would have continued to even further if we were stay.

NEoldiron

Tomw85

Whitehorse has answered for me regarding concessions.

You also said "didn't just fall for the headline quotes from some of the politicians."
You mean those headline quotes like "taking back control" with Farage standing in front of refugees, like "340million a week for the NHS" from Ian Duncan Smith.

The overwhelming opinion of impartial observers was that it would be disastrous to leave.
All I've seen on here from the leavers since the referendum are copy-paste headlines from pro-Brexit newspapers saying how everything will be rosy (I'm obviously paraphrasing).
Also, how we're the 5th biggest economy in the world - which should now be amended to we were.

What by the way were the "concessions we have (that) were slowly being eroded"? ;hmm

imagelost

I voted out , ,, I want stay out,, like the 2k ish people I know,,

Tomw85

Neoldiron, I am at work so not quite able to spend the time on this that I would like, but just to quickly answer your points;

Concessions, below is a link to an article back in 1994 when our power to veto already started to weaken:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-elections-explaining-the-mysterious-british-veto-john-lichfield-writes-the-first-of-a-1438345.html

I did want to find a more recent article to back this up further but a quick search showed me that there is so much press out there that is either remain or leave it was hard to find something that I felt wasn't bias.

I would ask what evidence you have to show that we were not losing our ability to veto and that the EU was not heading for further integration that we would be likely to be involved in in some form or another.

Also here is a link to show that we could agree new trade deals and still be a major economy in the world:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/690191/Britain-ten-Brexit-trade-deals-lined-up-economic-powerhouses

Apart from having to renegotiate with the EU over access to the single market (not the only market in the world) do you have any evidence to show that we will suddenly stop being the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world?

As an out voter I am constantly being asked to prove something that is nearly impossible to prove of what will happen next, all I can do is point to the stories I have read that are not all doom and gloom. HSBC and Barclays both said they are staying, Semiens are still pushing ahead with investment. London is still geographically placed to be the financial centre of the world.

Why restrict our ability to trade and negotiate with the world to fit in the with EU which is one of the slowest growing continents:

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-does-only-the-economy-of-antarctica-grow-slower-than-the-eus-61235

I am really at a loss as to why so many remainers cannot see a future for us outside of the EU. As I said many pages back if the EU had remained a free trading market as it started out as then by all means count me in, however I do not like the way it is evolving and find it to be undemocratic. I have had lengthy debates with my sister who is pro remain and a Corbyn supporter and after we have finished going round in circles we both realise that we want the same end goal but have different views on how we will get there.

Yes a small minority have been loud and vulgar thinking that their racist views are now ok, but speaking for myself and the other out voters I know we despise those people just as much, if not more for the bad rep they give us all, as you remainers.