The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

MrsGrey

;whome

NEoldiron

Explanation Madcap - great granddaughter speaking German ;wink

Baracks, and the next step is racism. ;hmm

SuzanneClaret

baracks_a_hammer said:

Slightly off topic but Oscar pistorius has just been given 6 years for murder. Which, if he keeps his powder dry might only end up being 2 years. He might end up being out of prison before the UK is out of the EU

Wow, just wow.. ;doh

Criminal, just criminal. The minimum sentence in SA for murder is 15 years.

billybondsbeard

Not all Brexiteers are Racists - but all racists will be Brexiteers..

MrsGrey

How long has he served already? (Genuine question, I stopped following the whole circus a while back.)

TheMadcapLaughs

;lol

I wondered if I`d logged into my "other" website by mistake.......................
;nonono

grey_til_I_dye

A polite reminder to be polite...

I know this issue is emotive, but can we try to avoid using negative epithets for either group and stick to the issues?

This is a general comment, not in response to any one post.

baracks_a_hammer

billybondsbeard said:

Not all Brexiteers are Racists - but all racists will be Brexiteers..

Racism can take many forms you know

You will get the blatant name callers

But also those who play their part in making sure minorities do not progress to levels seniority in their chosen professions and thereby help to ensure glass ceilings remain in place - still racist

So are all those in the second category brexiters too?

thornburyiron

Things keep getting quoted about migrants being a net contributor based on government figures. It may well be true, who knows. What I have a problem is that according to the national statistics office over 1million more NI numbers have been issued than official immigrant numbers. Where are they? If nobody really knows how many there are how do we know correct numbers

MrsGrey

They were short-term migrants. You can relax. ;wink

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/12/ons-short-term-migration-explains-national-insurance-gap

ONS analysis has conclusively shown that ... in the year to the end of June 2014, long-term migration by EU citizens was 223,000 while short-term migration was 251,000 – giving a total of 474,000. In the same period, 421,000 national insurance numbers were given to EU citizens.

TheMadcapLaughs

billybondsbeard said:

Not all Brexiteers are Racists - but all racists will be Brexiteers..

And how does this square with Jeremy Corbyns (alleged) anti semitism.

MrsGrey

By allegations, do you mean the unfounded allegations resulting from deliberate media misrepresentation of his speech welcoming the independent report of an investigation into anti-semitism in the Labour Party where he said that all the reports recommendations would be implemented?

The speech where “He was making no comparison whatsoever between Israel and ISIS or anyone else. He was making the comparison which I make in my report" as explained by the author of the report, who added "I take responsibility for what felt like the deliberate misrepresentation of the leader’s speech by people who are very quick to misunderstand and condemn.”

Those allegations?

billybondsbeard

Exactly that - Corbyns so called anti Semitism was a result of his comparison with Zionist attacks and Land grabs against Palestinians in the West Bank to the actions of Hamas, and asking what were the difference ??
Surprise Surprise, the right wing press then accuse him of anti semitism.
Israel have far right parties as well....

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

What is the substance of the claim, rather than the airy 'there are allegations'?

There isn't one that I can see. A comment was pounced on, and labelled anti-Semitic. Corbyn clarified his intention. Shouldn't that be the end of it?

Seems to me people are looking for stuff that isn't there.

TheMadcapLaughs

billybondsbeard said:

Mrs Grey ;ok

Can everyone remember that immediatly following the Brexit vote, Mark Carney found £250 BILLION down the back of the sofa to support the 'markets' and the pound.

I dont believe that we havent got the money, and I do believe that the current situation in the UK is one of managed decline, due to a lack of long term investment in our Economy.
Money has been cut from local councils, which directly impinges on their ability to fund school places, and training programmes have been cut for the NHS so that we find we have to recruit abroad. The pressure of immigration, or our ageing population on our services has either:
1. Not been assessed correctly = Criminal Incompetence
2. Has been assessed correctly = Government choice

Either way, it is not the fault of Immigration or Europe.

Totally agree with this (as a brexiteer) apart from the last two words. I see the EU as a major contributory factor. The system is rotten from the top down. Less politicians equals less waste equals more money to address the very issues which seem to occupy us all. There are enough resources, they are just poorly managed and above all unfairly distributed.

MrsGrey

Madcap, I don't follow your logic that (you seem to be saying, but I may be misreading) there is waste, poor management and unfair distribution of resources ....

this is caused by being a member of the EU and also by our own govt policies and ideologies (ie too any politicians).......

And that if we leave the EU, things will improve because there will be more money available (and fewer politicians interfering).

You see, I would add to that: but our govt will persist with its policies and ideologies and will just carry on as before, but just with more money to mismanage and distribute unfairly. So leaving the EU will not achieve very much, and we will lose a lot of other things at the same time (which I would rather we keep).

TheMadcapLaughs

Grey, which is why I said alleged (and perhaps he is anti semitic, who knows?), it was said to support the point made by Baracks. What BBB said was as sweeping as it gets, I`m sure if we looked hard enough we could find racists who voted Remain. I`m not sure that every hedge fund manager, stockbroker, banker and general "city type" that voted remain has not uttered, just once, the phrase "damned foreigners". In fact I`d bet my brand new mortgage on it.

TheMadcapLaughs

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42976/Dont+give+racists+the+credit++for+the+Leave+vote

And not a graph or pie chart to be seen.

TheMadcapLaughs

So perhaps not as straight forward as:

Not all brexiteers are racist......but all racists will be brexiteers.......

I`ve said this before, it`s a smear by association and offensive. Even more offensive if one happens to be naked!? ;puzzled

billybondsbeard

Madcap
So we get the money back from the EU, and then what ??
Do I then transfer my trust of handling the economy to Osborne and his ilk, who in no way will distribute these extra funds to places like Cornwall (Close to my heart) or Wales for exampleas the EU have done? - no, that money will never be seen again.
Will it be spent on the environment, or the NHS ? - dont hold your breath.
Will it be given back to the local authorities to guarantee schools and services ?- nope

We will be handing back control of our finances to a party that, due to boundary gerrymandering, the rise of UKIP, and the collapse of the Labour vote to the Scottish Nationalists will probably get back into power, due to the FPTP system we have. There will be no investment in our infrastructure and training and continuing short termism. I liked the EU because, despite its faults, the sheer number of countries represented ensure that at least some valuable legislation was passed to the benefit of all, and it was broadly centrist in its approach.
The euro is a disaster which we are well out of, but I saw no harm in those that were in the Euro zone having closer political Union if it was their choice - if it works for them, fine. We were never in that.

Everyone says that the EU was unnacountable, with people who were unelected making legislation - er House of Lords anyone ???
;hmm
If we could get some form of PR into our voting system I would be more relaxed - as everybody's vote would really count in an election, exactly as has happenned in the Referendum - even if it meant that disenfranchised UKIP voters got more MP's as a result. MPs in safe seats is like a return to 'rotten boroughs' where so many people are disenfranchised that they dont bother to vote at all.
Rant over - just going to post about football from now on, sorry to be an old leftie bore...
;wink
off to have a lunchtime pint and pasty ;beer

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G. My logic is that "The System" is rotten. It looks after its own, those at the top, the elite, the EU amplifies, sustains and exacerbates this situation. I am a firm believer in less government, less layers of bureaucracy, less laws, less rules. The opportunity to kick Brussels in to touch was too good an opportunity to miss. I would then hope/pray that we start to "chip away" at the system here. The current vogue seems for more government and more non elected officials, bonkers in my book. Again I will ask: WHAT DO THEY DO ALL DAY????????????

NEoldiron

Madcap said
"I`m not sure that every hedge fund manager, stockbroker, banker and general "city type" that voted remain has not uttered, just once, the phrase "damned foreigners" "

As if that is the only type of Remainer there is.
I'm an electrician who happens to believe that the EU, for all its faults, is overall beneficial.
I also agree it needs reforming and the UK was probably the loudest voice for reform.
I believe that reform will eventually happen but we will be outside of it to our detriment.

AKA are you wearing those badges with pride? ;hmm

Billy ;clap ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

BBB. Pint??? I think you mean 500 millilitres. Pasty??? I think you mean Pastry enclosed meat and vegetables of a non specific origin.

And BBB. I agree with everything you say. Perhaps the extra money won`t be spent (initially) on the NHS or schools, but I don`t think they will get away with this for long. I sense a bit of a sea change in British politics, I think that the politicians will be less likely to ignore voiced concerns and maybe won`t "carry on regardless" as they`ve done in the past. That`s my hope anyway.

TheMadcapLaughs

And BBB; like you I think that certainly in the short term The UK will be best represented by a broad cross section of ideologies. I said about 350 pages back that a coalition government of some description would be the best way forward. We need to have the best people at the helm for now, whatever their political persuasion, working for The UK, not themselves.

TheMadcapLaughs

NEoldiron said:

Madcap said
"I`m not sure that every hedge fund manager, stockbroker, banker and general "city type" that voted remain has not uttered, just once, the phrase "damned foreigners" "

As if that is the only type of Remainer there is.
I'm an electrician who happens to believe that the EU, for all its faults, is overall beneficial.
I also agree it needs reforming and the UK was probably the loudest voice for reform.
I believe that reform will eventually happen but we will be outside of it to our detriment.

AKA are you wearing those badges with pride? ;hmm

Billy ;clap ;ok

Edit: stockbroker, banker, electrician and general city type...........

It was said to highlight the point that (despite agreeing with almost everything BBB says) his statement that " not all brexiteers are racists....but all racists are brexiteers"
is clearly 100% wrong. That surely is indisputable. Isn`t it??

billybondsbeard

justtalkaboutfootballjusttalkaboutfootballjusttalkaboutfootballjusttalkaboutfootballjusttalkaboutfootballjusttalkabout......... ;puzzled

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

BBB. Pint??? I think you mean 500 millilitres. Pasty??? I think you mean Pastry enclosed meat and vegetables of a non specific origin.

MadCap, I get that you are just having a joke about this.

But this type of jokey remark hides a serious issue - people have been exposed to years of lies and disinformation, myths and hoaxes about the EU ... banning bendy bananas or custard creams, kids being banned from blowing up balloons and so on. A certain Mr Johnson (enthusiastically helped by the tabloid press) was a leader in this field, and he admits it was blatant lies. Even though it didn't stop him repeating them.

This constant drip feed of utter rubbish has lodged itself in the minds of many and contributed to their Euroscepticism. But much of it is deliberate lies, with other measures purposely misrepresented to bias readers against the EU.

Ravel49

What will happen to eurotrash ;puzzled

baracks_a_hammer

I'm at a school sports day today and have been speaking to a fellow parent who is a teacher in a secondary school - she has told me that there was a considerable amount of hostile pressure put on by the majority remain teachers towards not only the Brexit teachers in the staff room but also those teachers imploring their pupils to go home and encourage their parent to vote remain

In the aftermath I was also told there are remain teachers in that school who now won't speak to their Brexit colleagues.

How reassuring to know that these are the sorts of people who will be teaching and guiding our future generations.

No doubt someone will post some statistics and percentages which will know none of this sort of thing goes on.

imagelost

If we discount the Scottish votes
Some one tell me the stat's?