The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

thornburyiron

Pards how did you get on proving you were the right person ;lol

Ravel49

At least this expains the flamin galah

#alf

TheMadcapLaughs

I think this debate can be summed up in the words of this great protest song. In? Out? It`s a serious issue and this song puts it beautifully:

pardewalegend

Lolololololollol

Like the Aussie PM said yesterday

If anyone that has moved to Aussie does not respect there values and way of like your free to go we don't want you here

Quality

MrsGrey

ironmike44 said:

Moojor - oh well, if two of you agreed it must be right then - that's me well and truly put back in my box then. ;wink

A little harsh ;puzzled

You accused Remainers of sour grapes and challenged them to point out where they said BEFORE the vote that they were anti the referendum process.

So some did.

MrsGrey

mike said:

MrsGrey

Where did I say in my post that those statements were lies.?

Apologies ;ok

You referred to lies and half lies. I conflated that with a post just before it where the question was asked what lies the 'Remain' side told.

NEoldiron

Here's another very interesting read:

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

mike

No problem MrsGrey ;ok

OutcastLondoner

Borders are stupid.

OutcastLondoner

I was in the transfer thread and my post turned up here...

MrsGrey

;doh ;lol

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Yeoldhammer said:

FYI Australia had a petition going after Brexit to get out of the Commonwealth. Not sure many countries actually want to be in the commonwealth.

;nonono

Colchester_Iron

What has the EU ever done for us?

MrsGrey

;hmm

Viaducts?

Colchester_Iron

;hmm

NEoldiron

And yet another interesting read:

http://europe.newsweek.com/little-englander-triumph-leaves-no-one-better-474247?rm=eu

I've yet to find an impartial article/comment/analysis anywhere that sees anything positive that can come out of this (discounting UK newspapers).
I have not seen a single post by a Leaver on this thread referencing such. All the links to impartial articles/comments/analyses that have been posted have been by Remainers. Why is that? ;hmm

This will go down as the biggest instance of self-harming ever. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

thornburyiron

Because it is the remainers who are desperate to find everything they possibly can to try to prove they should have won.

Swissiron

TheMadcapLaughs said:

"Should such a momentous decision really be simply made on first past the post?"

How else we gonna do it?

Seems fair to me, a referendum took us in, a referendum has taken us out.

We didnt go in as a result of a referendum. The referendum of 75 kept us in, we entered the EU in 73

NEoldiron

"desperate to find everything they possibly can to try to prove they should have won"

Don't quite understand what that means in the context of a reply to my post.

Ok Thorn, as I said, I've tried to find a positive impartial article/comment/analysis anywhere.
Why don't you have a go and find one and prove all us Remainers desperately wrong.

Or is it you who's coming to realise that you're in denial of the fact that the Leave vote will lead to the dismantling and disempowerment of the UK, one of those inconvenient truths and unintended consequences.

There's none so blind as those who will not see ;whistle

thornburyiron

I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I voted out but if the result had gone the other way I'd have accepted it without the tantrums. I used to send my kids to their rooms when they kicked off because they didn't get what they wanted.
The EU doesn't exist for the benefit of Europe but for the benefit of Germany who are aiming for a federal state of Europe governed by them.

Dodger58

To take this in a slightly different direction, the EU wants us to invoke Article 50 asap, some want us to take our time. I would love us to invoke the article, then totally ignore any negotiation with the EU until we had closed multiple negotiations with other countries - such as USA, India, Australia, China, New Zealand, ..., Tierra del Fuego.

I wonder how long it would take the German Industrialists to kick off?

MrsGrey

thornburyiron said:

I voted out but if the result had gone the other way I'd have accepted it without the tantrums. I used to send my kids to their rooms when they kicked off because they didn't get what they wanted.

Patronising, much?

Also, you might have accepted it, but it doesn't say much for the courage of your convictions. Perhaps those who believe the UK is better off in Europe aren't just shrugging their shoulders and saying ' meh, you win some, you lose some'.

thornburyiron said:

The EU doesn't exist for the benefit of Europe but for the benefit of Germany who are aiming for a federal state of Europe governed by them.

In your opinion.

And even if it does - so what?

Voting out to give Germany a bloody nose is a pretty poor motive imo.

If the UK benefits overall, who cares if Germany also benefits.

Sounds a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Dodger58

Maybe we can all unite on this:

Make it illegal for any UK political figure to knowingly lie or mislead.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/119416

grey_til_I_dye

thornburyiron

The EU doesn't exist for the benefit of Europe but for the benefit of Germany who are aiming for a federal state of Europe governed by them.

Well, in your opinion.

It isn't about whingeing because the result didn't go the way I wanted, it is about such a tainted process being used to make such a momentous decision.

When you get a guy who piled in £11m pounds to the Leave campaign admitting that they focused their pitch away from facts where it was felt Leave was losing, and on to immigration, which they felt was a winner, you have to doubt how honest or democratic the process was.

At least, I do.

Perhaps, if you got the 'right' result, you don't have to care how we got there?

I used to take away privileges from my kid when he lied like a hairy egg.

MrsGrey

Dodger58 said:

To take this in a slightly different direction, the EU wants us to invoke Article 50 asap, some want us to take our time. I would love us to invoke the article, then totally ignore any negotiation with the EU until we had closed multiple negotiations with other countries - such as USA, India, Australia, China, New Zealand, ..., Tierra del Fuego.

I wonder how long it would take the German Industrialists to kick off?

That would be utter utter irresponsibility on behalf of the govt.

It's more than just trade, you know.

Many peoples lives, family, health, income and livelihoods depend on what will be negotiated.

To ignore all that for petty nose-thumbing at Germany would be ridiculous.

After 2 years, the Uk would no longer be part of the EU. WTO trade tariffs would immediately apply to all existing imports and exports. People's residency status would be in limbo. Companies that employed EU nationals wouldn't know whether they were coming or going. All the vital NHS workers from EU countries would be limbo.

Would you love that?

Dodger58

To ignore all that for petty nose-thumbing at Germany would be ridiculous.

At no point was this said. But there is no reason we have to negotiate with the EU first, that is just part of their continued arrogance - in my opinion of course.

Why are the EU only referring to trade then?

Many peoples lives will benefit from improved trade Globally as well. There is a larger trading block outside the EU than in it.

grey_til_I_dye

Dodger

What makes you think the UK doesn't need to negotiate with the EU?

What happens to all the issues covered by current EU agreements? They are just nullified? So, for example, all EU nationals are forced to leave the UK, and UK nationals resident in the EU to return to the UK?

Without any agreement with the EU, the UK will, at best, achieve WTO status in terms of trade.

It doesn't matter how large alternative trading blocks might be if

a) your current major trading partners are within the EU

b) you can't guarantee that any trading lost from the EU will be made up for outside it, and that you can get as good or better a trade deal than the UK currently enjoys under EU membership.

IronHerb

Dodger58 said:

To ignore all that for petty nose-thumbing at Germany would be ridiculous.

At no point was this said. But there is no reason we have to negotiate with the EU first, that is just part of their continued arrogance - in my opinion of course.

Why are the EU only referring to trade then?

Many peoples lives will benefit from improved trade Globally as well. There is a larger trading block outside the EU than in it.

From the little I know I'm pretty sure we can't break EU rules by negotiating external trade agreements while still members of the EU.

MrsGrey

Dodger, you referred to German industrialists. Fair enough if you weren't implying an anti-German direction ;ok

I agree that many people MAY benefit from global trade. I never said otherwise. But others may suffer as aresult of voiding or changing existing contracts.

re. not negotiating with the EU first - I think it is vitally important that ALL the aspects of our membership of the EU (not just trade, but also the situation of UK and EU citizens who live and work in each others countries and in many cases have mixed families, of businesses that have branches and employ staff in other countries, of residents and tourists who have access to various levels of health care abroad, of fishing quotas, of farming subsidies, of scientific R+D grants, of air quality and water quality standards.... I could go on.)

My point is, after 40 years, so many aspects are intertwined. This has to be sorted out. and just saying 'yeah, yeah, we'll get round to it' as away of putting 2 fingers up to the EU would be petty and irresponsible in the extreme. This is no time or playing games, the consequences are too important. in my considered opinion.

Dodger58

Most of the aspects you refer to are currently woven into the British Legal system,

IronHerb said:

Dodger58 said:

To ignore all that for petty nose-thumbing at Germany would be ridiculous.

At no point was this said. But there is no reason we have to negotiate with the EU first, that is just part of their continued arrogance - in my opinion of course.

Why are the EU only referring to trade then?

Many peoples lives will benefit from improved trade Globally as well. There is a larger trading block outside the EU than in it.

From the little I know I'm pretty sure we can't break EU rules by negotiating external trade agreements while still members of the EU.

IronHerb, you are correct. But there is also no reason why once we are no-longer members of the EU we have to negotiate with them first. They don't want to entertain any form of negotiation until we have left, fine, they can take their turn in the queue.