The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

ironmike44

Grey - fine, just couldn't see anything regarding this in your, or others posts, prior to the vote.

MrsGrey

ironmike - from an earlier page (February) - I looked it up for you ;ok

grey_til_I_dye said:

baracks

I don't think it is irrelevant.

I don't believe that 'the people' have the right to choose, regardless of how stupid that choice might be.

I don't expect the majority of those who vote to be properly informed, which is why I don't really support the idea of a referendum for this, or indeed any issue.

I gave it an Agree ;biggrin

grey_til_I_dye

mike

See here for a different take on Germany's possible attitude:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-fallout-analysis-by-baml-uk-eu-and-german-trade-negotiations-2016-7

No one can know for sure what trade tariffs the UK will face until the agreements have been made.

Personally, my feeling was that if the UK ditched the single market, they would be worse off in terms of tariffs and trading with the EU, and less able to make preferential deals with other trading countries

If they didn't ditch the single market, then there was no real point in leaving.

Moojor

ironmike44 said:

Grey - fine, just couldn't see anything regarding this in your, or others posts, prior to the vote.

Mike, just to back up MrsGrey said above, I also agreed with Grey on his original post:

Moojor said:

Totally agree, which supports Grey's point that this stuff really shouldn't be put out to vote by the public who really aren't going to research it in any way shape or form and just vote for or against based on personal feelings rather than what is best for the country.
Though I jest about voting "in" just because Gove on the "out" side. I do fully intend to research what is the best option. This sort of decision is going to affect my daughter and many generations to come.

ironmike44

Thanks Mrs Grey

ironmike44

But it would seem that you were the only one that 'agreed'. ;wink

TheMadcapLaughs

But Grey, a referendum took us into The EU, surely it`s fair that a referendum has taken us out. And if you think it should be left up to the government to decide, the present government was elected (IMO) on one manifesto promise, and one alone, that they would hold a referendum. Again it seems fair to me that said government should act on the result of said referendum. If they put it to a free vote in The House I would expect that the majority of MP`s (as Remainers) would vote to stay within The EU. This assumes that those MP`s had sufficient backbone to vote as per their conviction and not according to the perceived safety of their seat. I honestly don`t think that a vote by MP`s to remain would be in the best interests of the country form both a democratic perspective or form a societal perspective. Things could turn nasty. Although the markets may be bolstered and the pound may rise a cent or two against the dollar. Hurrah.

pardewalegend

Remove them
They shouldn't be here anyway!!
Unless!!
Speak the language
Clean criminal record
Clean health record
Have a skill
Have a job to go to ( sponsor)
Have money to be self sufficient as the state will pay for nothing.

That's not racist that's common sense there is no point allowing anyone to come unless they are going to make us better

grey_til_I_dye

They shouldn't be here anyway!!

Based on what?

MrsGrey

I hear and read people saying 'that's democracy'.

But it's not really - it's not the democracy we have in the UK. Our democracy is the kind (there are others) where the people's democratic right is to vote for an MP who then toddles off to Westminster and gets on with the job of governing the country within a framework of a parliamentary democracy. (And it's worth bearing in mind that it is very rare for MPs to be allowed to vote other than in the way their Party tells them to.)

Referendums are basically a government-run opinion poll.

They have no legal power (Unless the specific referendum was set up to be legally binding, which this one isn't).

Now I'm not saying that when Parliament get round to debating and deciding on when and how to trigger Article 50, they should ignore the outcome of the referendum. But they should either, as per custom and practice in our system of parliamentary democracy, vote as they are told to by their Party OR be given a free vote and vote according to what they think is best.



(Edit: plus, the various referendums are basically cobbled-together affairs: who is eligible to vote seems to vary. How can that be 'democracy'?)

MrsGrey

ironmike44 said:

But it would seem that you were the only one that 'agreed'. ;wink

The original comment had more ;ok

Also, the absence of clicked agrees can in no way be taken to imply disagrees ;wink

MrsGrey

pardewalegend said:

Remove them
They shouldn't be here anyway!!
Unless!!
Speak the language
Clean criminal record
Clean health record
Have a skill
Have a job to go to ( sponsor)
Have money to be self sufficient as the state will pay for nothing.

That's not racist that's common sense there is no point allowing anyone to come unless they are going to make us better

And presumably you will agree that they only pay (say) 50% of the normal rate of income tax then, since you seem so keen to restrict their access to things that the state funds with income tax, such as schools for their kids or the NHS.

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

the present government was elected (IMO) on one manifesto promise, and one alone, that they would hold a referendum. Again it seems fair to me that said government should act on the result of said referendum.

This is all complete speculation. You have no evidence for how significant the referendum promise was in getting people to vote Tory.

Have you?

( ;sofa and waits for #statbomb )

Ravel49

Alderz vs Eskiboi III

baracks_a_hammer

So what are we saying here - if the people had voted in the same direction as the majority of MPs then this should then be respected but then if the people had voted against the majority of MPs, then what the MPs think should just be carried through anyway?

Yep, sounds totally fair and equitable to me.

ironmike44

Baracks - yep, sounds about right to me. Democracy 'remain style' ;biggrin

grey_til_I_dye

baracks

Well, no, not me, at least.

I said it should never have been put to the people.

pardewalegend

Greys

If we are allowing qualified people to come here and fill in our shortfalls for jobs, perfect they will work hard pay tax and be entitled to what they should be.

If however they are unskilled have no job, don't speak the language have no money if there own etc etc

Why on earth should we have them here

MrsGrey

So what are we saying here - if the people had voted against the majority of MPs, then what the MPs think should just be carried through anyway?

The government frequently pushes through legislation to enact a policy thata minority of people voted for in a General Election.

That's democracy ;wink


--

I don't know what you are saying, but it actually wasn't what I said in my earlier post. ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

MrsGrey said:

TheMadcapLaughs said:

the present government was elected (IMO) on one manifesto promise, and one alone, that they would hold a referendum. Again it seems fair to me that said government should act on the result of said referendum.

This is all complete speculation. You have no evidence for how significant the referendum promise was in getting people to vote Tory.

Have you?

( ;sofa and waits for #statbomb )

66% of those people who voted Conservative at the last election admitted that they did so on the promise of a EU referendum.

grey_til_I_dye

pardew

You stated

They shouldn't be here anyway!!

I asked you what that was based on.

pardewalegend

And I just told you

TheMadcapLaughs

I did only ask three people though............................................ ;whistle

Ravel49

Romaine28 said:

Sweepstake for when this thread gets closed ;wink

lolololol

20.32

Tonight

pardewalegend

Lol

MrsGrey

pardewalegend said:

Greys

If we are allowing qualified people to come here and fill in our shortfalls for jobs, perfect they will work hard pay tax and be entitled to what they should be.

You said the state would pay for nothing?

If they work + pay tax and would be 'entitled to all things' as a UK citizen would, why will they need to prove they have money to be self-sufficient?

And if, after a couple of years, they lose their job? They will be entitled to benefits, having paid taxes in the normal way, wouldn't you agree?

And, another flaw in your cunning plan - it is often the unskilled and dirty jobs where there is a shortfall.

MrsGrey

madcap ;lol

ironmike44

Moojor - oh well, if two of you agreed it must be right then - that's me well and truly put back in my box then. ;wink

mike

MrsGrey

Where did I say in my post that those statements were lies.?


We won't know for at least two years what will happen with trade so that is at least a half-truth.
I doubt if Cameron would have got a better deal on immigration as free movement is one of the EUs main priorities.

I have my strong beliefs as do you so I don't think we will come to any middle ground on this subject.

Mike

pardewalegend

Cunning plan!!!!
I have duel citizenship for Australia I had to transfer 20k to an Aussie bank account before I arrived.
Also had three medical a over the period of three years it took me to get it.
Had to have a job to go to and the employer letter proving it
Criminal record check
Amongst a whole host of other things
Is that a cunning plan
No it's not it's getting the right people in for the best interests of the country