The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited June 2016
    Madcap - we live in a global economy, especially the UK where the banking and financial sector account for a huge chunk of our economy. If the 2008 crash taught us anything it is that nations have little control over the markets and as a country with an economy heavily dependent on financial services we are going to suffer when the market is volatile.

    If we don't want the UK economy to be so susceptible to market fluctuations then we need greater regulation of the financial sector (like Germany for example) but that is certainly not what those leading the Brexit campaign (UKIP, the Johnson/Gove wing of the Tories) want, if anything they want less regulation
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Interesting reading:
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/everything-will-be-on-the-table-in-brexit-talks-says-french-minister

    Scary reading:
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/uk-lacks-expertise-for-trade-talks-with-europe-says-top-civil-servant
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    MadCap, while I think everyone agrees that plenty of people who voted out aren't racist, it irritates me that people also try to downplay it. Maybe people you spoke to didn't vote for that reason but there are plenty of others who clearly say they did. The media coverage has long been heavily linked to fear about immigration, it was a heavy theme in the campaign (and even the general election with the Labour mug) and what is happening now in terms of racist/xenophobic abuse shows who has been emboldened.

    I also have tried not to get too involved because I don't think there's much use trying to blame people who voted a certain way or to predict whether the economy will/won't collapse instead of discussing what exit route will suit the whole country.

    But it grates me when people try to minimise the role of racism in this thing, including the Labourites who think this is all about their little Westminster world. Everyone's little discussions about what will or won't happen to the economy, single market etc. are all theoretical. In reality, racism has increased.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    baracks_a_hammer said:

    grey_til_I_dye said:

    Madcap

    What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

    That's not what he said according to the way I read his post ;ok
    Exactly, not my point at all, my point is shouldn`t we be listening to people rather than peering over our shoulders at markets. That point would stand whoever had won. If the result was reversed then we would be staying in The EU, but surely 16 million indicating that they would like to leave would perhaps ring alarm bells with the politicians that despite buoyant markets and the Remainers celebrating with bunting and street parties, not all was rosy amongst the general populus. The vote was extremely close which is why in the spirit of conciliation and cooperation the next government should be a coalition. IMO. However, given that the outers won (by a small margin admittedly) the focus of the government should be securing the best future for Britain, but with Brexit as its primary goal.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    ASLEF, couldn`t agree more regarding the financial sector and the global economy. Britain is over reliant on this sector to its detriment. If a World economy can be held to ransom on the whims and fancies of a few super rich gamblers then there is something fundamentally wrong. Perhaps we should take this opportunity, in the long term, to start making things again. We wouldn`t then need to hold our breath if Mr Super Rich Gambler gets out of the bed the wrong side. Naive and idealistic possibly, but something needs to change.
  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    The leave campaign even came out and said they will weaponise the immigration issue as the economy issue was losing the fight for them.

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...
  • eskimokingeskimoking
    Getting fed up with people saying the FTSE 100 has recovered and ignoring (or not being aware of) the FTSE 250s decline.

    Ignorance helps the argument I suppose.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Outcast, I agree with everything you say. The actions of these boneheads should be condemned in the strongest terms by both sides, particularly Nigel Farage. Believe me, I wouldn`t normally ally myself with the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove etc etc. and I think both Remainers and Outers are split across the normal political divides. And believe me I wasn`t trying to downplay the seriousness of it, it`s just that to some Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage appear to be fair game.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    MrsGrey said:

    MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...

    So why do we make anything at all. Defeatist attitude IMO. And talking directly to manufacturers/importers the impression I get is that the cost gap is shrinking. Hence the reason I said "in the long term".

  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    eskimoking said:

    Getting fed up with people saying the FTSE 100 has recovered and ignoring (or not being aware of) the FTSE 250s decline.

    Ignorance helps the argument I suppose.

    Until yesterday I hadn`t heard of the FTSE250. All indicators when things are going well appear to point to the FTSE100. So perhaps pointing to the FTSE250, now it suits, is a little unfair. After all, when the FTSE100 plunged after Brexit its demise seemed to suit the Remainers then. It`s only on the FTSE100`s recovery that people have started to point to the FTSE250. So yes, until yesterday I was ignorant of it`s existence because The Remainers hadn`t pointed it out to me.

  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    I am now frantically googling FTSE500 just in case the FTSE250 recovers ;wink
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    MrsGrey said:

    MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...

    So why do we make anything at all. Defeatist attitude IMO. And talking directly to manufacturers/importers the impression I get is that the cost gap is shrinking. Hence the reason I said "in the long term".

    I didn't say we could make nothing worth selling.



    These manufacturers/importers you have been speaking to. Are they experts? ;wink
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    MrsGrey said:

    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    MrsGrey said:

    MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...

    So why do we make anything at all. Defeatist attitude IMO. And talking directly to manufacturers/importers the impression I get is that the cost gap is shrinking. Hence the reason I said "in the long term".

    I didn't say we could make nothing worth selling.



    These manufacturers/importers you have been speaking to. Are they experts? ;wink
    Not experts, no Mrs G. Which is why I take their viewpoint seriously. ;biggrin
  • Pearces_Left_FootPearces_Left_Foot
    As much as I enjoy a good debate I really like to avoid politics and religion as they are the most divisive subjects going . As brexit will take years if it happens is it maybe time to close this thread ? and talk about football as this is a football website afterall . By all means continue if people wish I will just avoid this thread in future ;biggrin
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Pearces

    Think avoidance is the best move.

    A quick glimpse at the threads on the first page suggests that this is moore than just a football site.

    (See what I did there...?)
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    eskimoking said:

    Getting fed up with people saying the FTSE 100 has recovered and ignoring (or not being aware of) the FTSE 250s decline.

    Ignorance helps the argument I suppose.

    https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=^FTMC&a=11&b=31&c=1985&d=5&e=30&f=2016&g=d&z=66&y=0

    You have piqued my interest Eskimo with this FTSE250 you talk of. In fact I did a bit of research as above. Seems it was considerably lower in early February than it is now. Perhaps the Chief Executive of Mercedes Benz stubbed his toe that morning and was in a foul mood. As I`ve said earlier, "the value of your investments may go down as well as up". Far too much reliance on markets as "proof". The markets are not the be all and end all.

  • Pearces_Left_FootPearces_Left_Foot
    Fair enough Grey
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    I`ve just been thinking. Most of us want a fairer society. Most of us don`t trust the banks. Most of us hate extremism on both sides. Most of us abhor racism. Most of us want to do an honest days work for an honest days pay and provide for our families. Most of us (including me) want a bright future for our youth, and I include you in that Yeold. In fact most of us want the same things. which is why I find this bickering and sniping from both sides pretty odd. Perhaps Dave wasn`t so stupid after all. Divide and Rule, as they say.
  • MoojorMoojor
    So Boris isn't going to stand for PM. Wow. So the man who was all for leaving the EU and could well have been the person to do that suddenly doesn't want to...
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    Boris has baled out to the leadership contest!

    #notmyfaultguv
  • Colchester_IronColchester_Iron
    Presumably he has stepped aside to allow Gove to carry the mantle.
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    More likely that he knew he couldn't win
  • Colchester_IronColchester_Iron
    Et tu Gove?
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    Exactly Col.

    House of Cards or what? ;biggrin
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    As I said earlier in the week, the fluctuations in sterling and shares etc has little to do with the referendum vote. As my son's banker client told him on Monday he and his colleagues made a fortune, basically gambling. He said they could keep it going for months just by buying and selling when they want to. They could have used the European championships as a trigger if they wanted.
    Don't trust banking or high finance.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    I suspect the 1922 Comittee presented Boris with a detailed dossier of all his infidelities over the last 20 years listing all the children he has fathered outside his two marriages (inclunding the ones he has taken out legal injunctions to keep secret) and suggested that if he stood it would all go to Daily Mail columist Sarah Vine aka Mrs Michael Gove
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    More interesting reading:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/politics-brexit-unlawful-eu-uk
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    edited July 2016
    NEoldiron said:

    More interesting reading:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/politics-brexit-unlawful-eu-uk

    Thanks NE. I read above with interest, and it confirms my view further that we need less and less layers of Government and less and less layers of rules, laws and bureaucracy. If those at the top want to challenge the decision then I have right and justice on my side. And it`s no win no fee.....

    https://www.underdog.co.uk/

  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited July 2016
    I saw that article yesterday, NE.

    Personally I didn't find the arguments for judicial review on the basis of the motivation for the referendum at all convincing. The other potential grounds (ie. using this as the basis of the decision to leave the EU) I thought could possibly be more of a runner.

    Of course, it is all theoretical unless a challenge is brought, which I think unlikely. But interesting to think about.

    And it needn't be 'those at the top' who challenge the decision- that's not what a judicial review is. It could be someone 'at the bottom' who challenges it - that's the beauty of the system.

    Unlike MadCap, I feel very strongly that we the people need an independent means (such as the courts) to hold the government to actions for their actions: their power should not be without limits and they are not above the law. (I don't believe that the simple 'vote them out if you don't like them' is sufficient in this regard.) ;ok
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