The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

TheMadcapLaughs

And one final final point. Can people please stop using the words immigration and racism in the same sentence as a matter of course. It seems to be the assumption that if you have concerns over immigration you are automatically a racist. The issues of racism and immigration are separate issues. People from all backgrounds, whatever their creed, colour, religion have expressed concerns and fears over immigration and particularly an "open door policy". Whether it is their number one priority when considering the bigger issues is a matter for debate, of the people I spoke to, literally from wealthy retired country folk, to self employed tradesmen, to Polish delivery drivers, the issue of immigration came up very rarely and never as their number one concern. But it is an issue, not a taboo subject, and one that the politicians have ignored to their cost. Judging by the vote there are possibly millions of people out there where the question of immigration is important to them. But from my experience, and I hope it can be borne out by others experience, there are very few racists out there. Which is why parties to the far right have never, through history, gained a foothold in this country. We are a tolerant country, of which we are rightly proud, the word racist is being applied by association to vast swathes of people to smear and discredit and it is deeply offensive.

MrsGrey

It seems to be the assumption that if you have concerns over immigration you are automatically a racist.

I have neither assumed nor said this. (If it came across that way, I apologise.)

Nor has anyone else said it on this thread, as far as I can see without reading back.

I think you are being a bit unfair in your (admittedly reasonable, I feel) attempts to emphasis that not all 'Leavers' are racists and not even all those who gave immigration a high priority are racists.

However, there are lots of racists in the UK (I disagree with you that there are 'very few out there'. And lots of them will have voted Leave.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, you were the farthest from my thought when I wrote that, and I`m not talking about specifics from this thread, but there seems to be a general "mood" and feeling I get that the Remainers are the good guys, and the Outers are the bad guys. This is my opinion of course. But to me the issues of immigration and racism are two distinct issues but are often lumped together for convenience. Again just IMO. And excuse my ignorance regarding the judicial review system, but I would expect that someone "from the bottom" would possibly need to apply for legal aid, or are there no costs involved? That is a genuine question.

TheMadcapLaughs

In fact, I`m not sure that a legal challenge, whether instigated from the top or bottom, is a particularly good idea. The overriding image I have in my head is a couple of doddery old chaps in white wigs dismissing the opinions of millions of people over a couple of gin and tonics and a cucumber sandwich. Not a good idea me thinks. Although, given the image in my head, I think being in the age bracket I am envisaging they probably would have voted out anyway.

MrsGrey

MadCap, with judicial review, they don't review the outcome/the decision itself. They just check whether the process the body took to reach it was done within its lawful powers and according to the lawful procedures they are supposed to follow ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

Thanks Mrs G ;ok

NEoldiron

What I still fail to understand is how the result of a referendum which was only advisory and not legally binding has been taken to the point we're at now.

If there was a similar referendum (advisory and not legally binding) about the re-introduction of capital punishment and a similarly small majority wished for said re-introduction, it does not then mean that it would return. Parliament would take into account the "will of the people"'s referendum result but there would be no obligation to act on it.

If Brexit goes ahead there will probably be the unintended consequence of the break up of the UK.
If a second referendum was held under the current political and economic situation and ramifications caused by the result of the first, and with the knowledge that if we want to retain access to the single market we still have to accept freedom of movement but now with a poorer economy, would the Leavers again be in the majority - I don't think so.

MrsGrey

I see Gove is saying the NHS will (if he is given the job as PM) get £100m per week in additional funding.

Can he actually make that commitment? Does he have the power to bind the govt to such a promise? ;hmm

(Edit: by 2020, he says. Which given that he's saying Article 50 won't be invoked until 2017 at the earliest, is also a bit of a hostage to fortune, don't you think?)


(Another edit: although I suppose since that 2020 deadline is perhaps going to be AFTER the next General Election, he might not have to deliver on it. Depending on circumstances.)

IronHerb

Aaah! Promises, promises. ;lol

Tomw85

In positive news today both HSBC and Barclays have confirmed that they will be remaining in the UK. The FTSE 100 continues to climb as does the FTSE 250 all be it at a slower rate.

Gove has ruined both his and Boris's chances of being PM so looks like Teresa May will be the next PM and she campaigned (weakly) for a remain vote so hopefully that will make some of the remain voters feel a little better about things.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

MrsGrey said:

Can he actually make that commitment? Does he have the power to bind the govt to such a promise? ;hmm

It's never stopped any of them before.....

IronHerb

Last week they were promising £350m a week.

MrsGrey

He seems to be well on the way to further alienating Scotland by hinting that he's going to tear up the new funding agreement before the ink is dry.

A ruse so that he can later 'compromise' on it if Scotland promise not to have another referendum?

Tomw85

Gove has shown his true colours!

MrsGrey

He's a Cyndi Lauper fan? ;nonono

IronHerb

Well, Goves just want to have fun

;yercoat

MrsGrey

;lol

TheMadcapLaughs

There is only one constant throughout this process, politicians lie, they lied before the referendum, during the referendum, and continue to lie after it. I voted out based on this simple equation:

More politicians equals bad whereas less politicians equals good.

And I refuse to accept "the given" that the economy in the medium to long term will be inevitably weaker. I`m not saying it won`t, it`s just not as inevitable as we are lead to believe.

It is also not an absolute given that to trade with Europe in a mutually beneficial way we have to accept free movement of people. It is also not a given that trading within the single market, bound by the single market rules, reaps nothing but pluses and benefits. There are negatives also to consider.

I`m not sure of the exact figures (where`s ASLEF) but I am sure that I read somewhere that by even the most conservative estimate we are nett contributors to the tune of £140 million per week. Not good value in my book. I`d be happy with £35 million a week extra on The NHS. Got to be better value than spending it on non elected bureaucrats.

TheMadcapLaughs

I logged out, but logged straight back in to CMU Ironherb. ;biggrin ;diva

I`d pay good money to see Gove singing that...............

baracks_a_hammer

Re: Gove

I'm not particularly interested in whether someone may or may not have stabbed a fellow contender in the back - if that was top of the list of criteria, I expect most ftse execs might not be where they are today

Of greater relevance IMO is who will see the Brexit process through to the most optimal outcome for the UK as a whole.

It's not that I'm against May per se, I'm struggling to get my head round how she might deliver the best outcome given who she backed in the referendum.

thornburyiron

She "backed" remain but refused to campaign. In the past she'd always been a euro sceptic for the most part due to her battles with the EU when trying to deport or extradite criminals or terrorists etc.

baracks_a_hammer

Thorn ;ok

I didn't know that she didn't actively campaign

Tomw85

Barracks I don't really remember hearing her name apart from when one article in the paper said she was remain. Before it all kicked off there was talk of her fronting the leave vote. I said to a friend a while ago that she had been clever keeping out of the headlines throughout all of the brexit shenanigans!

NEoldiron

More interesting reading (if you can be bothered):

http://bruegel.org/2016/06/markets-and-broken-promises-in-the-uk-referendum/

We're doomed, doomed I tell ye ;wahoo ;nonono

pardewalegend

Both sides lied like a cheap watch time will tell
Teresa may will be a perfect PM she's a tough cookie her ;ok

baracks_a_hammer

Do cheap watches lie?? I never knew that ;lol

OutcastLondoner

My salary (set in dollars) increased £315 ;nonono

That's on top of it having increased anyway since the referendum started and the pound started bouncing about.

Can we Brexit next month as well? ;biggrin

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Thought this had some interesting points.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/29/was-brexit-fear-a-giant-hoax-or-is-this-the-calm-before-the-next/

NEoldiron

Seems to be a rise in xenophobic abuse since the Brexit vote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36656348

But someone will probably say it's only the reporting that has increased
;hmm

TheMadcapLaughs

OutcastLondoner said:

My salary (set in dollars) increased £315 ;nonono

That's on top of it having increased anyway since the referendum started and the pound started bouncing about.

Can we Brexit next month as well? ;biggrin

Thats the spirit Outcast. You know it makes sense, this time next year Rodders.............