The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

NEoldiron

Moojor, why would people regret voting to remain if the leave side won anyway? Does not compute ;hmm

Moojor

NEoldiron, I don't know, but it was, I believe, the other side of the poll you were quoting.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yes, Mrs G, the pollsters, who would be the recognised experts in their field. The point is that experts are often wrong and continually readjust forecasts in light of real and actual events. The other point was that, to a lot of people, the chance at a referendum was the one and only thing that concerned them, not the fact that the Conservatives were doing such a marvellous job. I think most people missed this. I see that to some extent that World markets and Sterling have gained a little ground over the past couple of days. After the initial shock of Brexit things will calm down. What could be more damaging long term is not the result but the subsequent political vacuum. I`m a little disappointed, but not surprised, at the level of cowardice displayed amongst politicians of all parties. What the country needs is strong, determined leadership. The sooner they sort themselves out, trigger article 50, remove any remaining uncertainty, and work towards whats best for this country the better, I have a feeling that, not unsurprisingly, markets will recover further, and Mrs G. you can go back to buying hats. I don`t understand the negativity. The UK has only been members of The EU (The EEC, Common Market) for about 40 years, but now our very future and survival, we are told, lies on one path only, and that`s staying as members of The EU. I find that quite frightening. Are Remainers saying that for all eternity, come what may, after a very brief 40 years of this countries history, that we are now stuck on this path because veering off it is too scary. Really?What kind of future is that?

MrsGrey

The UK has only been members of The EU (The EEC, Common Market) for about 40 years, but now our very future and survival, we are told, lies on one path only, and that`s staying as members of The EU. I find that quite frightening. Are Remainers saying that for all eternity, come what may, after a very brief 40 years of this countries history, that we are now stuck on this path because veering off it is too scary.

I can't speak for other Remainers, you'll have to ask them.

For me, I am not convinced by arguments that refer to the pre-EU period, saying it was OK then so it will be OK again. The world is very different place from what it was 50, 60, 70 and more years ago.

Also for me, I voted Remain because I don't believe that the supposed negatives resulting from EU membership are all that bad, or that they are not a price worth paying. And in some cases, what Brexiters see as negatives I see as positives. Those issues played a major part in my decision.
As for your question about whether we have to stay in for all eternity - I'm not saying that. Who knows what the future may hold, and what convincing arguments and evidence might be made. For me, they haven't been made yet.

--

Finally, I've not seen anything or anybody who is reputable that says

our very future and survival

depend on being In. (But then I haven't read everything ;biggrin ) I think you are exaggerating for effect, or putting up a straw man argument. Maybe? Just a teensy bit?

TheMadcapLaughs

ASLEFshrugged said:

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Come the General Election: The Conservatives win a thumping majority

The Conservatives got 36.9% of the vote, 6.5% ahead of Labour with a 10 seat majority, hardly thumping when compared with Blair's 43.2%/177 majority in 1997 or Thatcher's 42.2%/102 majority in 1987, even John Major got 41.9%/21 majority in 1992.

Just sayin'

Sorry, I got my figures wrong there, in terms of seats, and in terms of what was predicted. And I concede, not a thumping victory, but an unexpected majority.

TheMadcapLaughs

But Mrs G, are you going to continue buying hats?

I voted out cos I don`t think we`ll get another chance. And given that, I genuinely believe that long term we will be better off. Now or never for me. And yes I have allowed for a little artistic licence in my prose.

And ASLEF, stop already with the facts and figures...................

ASLEFshrugged

But that is my sole purpose in life, to annoy people with facts...

TheMadcapLaughs

Too clever by arf (as me Mum used to say). Destroyed so many of my arguments with facts and figures that I wish I`d voted Remain now.............................

NEoldiron

To all Brexiteers

From Wiki:

"The service sector dominates the UK economy, contributing around 78% of GDP; the financial services industry is particularly important and London is the world's largest financial centre.
The UK financial services industry added gross value of £116,363 million to the UK economy in 2011. The UK's exports of financial and business services make a significant positive contribution towards the country's balance of payments.

London is a major centre for international business and commerce and is one of the three "command centres" of the global economy (alongside New York City and Tokyo). There are over 500 banks with offices in London, and it is the leading international centre for banking, insurance, Eurobonds, foreign exchange trading and energy futures. London's financial services industry is primarily based in the City of London and Canary Wharf. The City houses the London Stock Exchange, the London International Financial Futures and Options Exchange, the London Metal Exchange, Lloyds of London, and the Bank of England. Canary Wharf began development in the 1980s and is now home to major financial institutions such as Barclays Bank, Citigroup and HSBC, as well as the UK Financial Services Authority. London is also a major centre for other business and professional services, and four of the six largest law firms in the world are headquartered there.

Several other major UK cities have large financial sectors and related services. Edinburgh has one of the largest financial centres in Europe and is home to the headquarters of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group and Standard Life."

You might want to check these out too, if you don't mind a little heavy reading.


http://londonfirst.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/London-and-the-EU_single-page.pdf

https://euobserver.com/news/123132

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/279331/bis_14_592_balance_of_competences_review_government_reponse_to_the_call_for_evidence.pdf


How long do you Brexiteers thing this situation will last outside the EU?
Especially what do you think will happen to GDP?
;hmm

imagelost

Ne old iron
I know 3 people that wanted to stay in!
And approx 70 wanted out
Me and a lots mates done postal vote in pen
Polls issued pencils ,,, for voting !!!!!
Justsaying

;clap

ASLEFshrugged

imagelost said:

Ne old iron
I know 3 people that wanted to stay in!
And approx 70 wanted out
Me and a lots mates done postal vote in pen
Polls issued pencils ,,, for voting !!!!!
Justsaying

;clap

Polling stations always have pencils, have done since I first voted in 1979. If they used pens they'd all be nicked by lunchtime...

MrsGrey

“It was taking an American-style media approach. What Goddard Gunster [US political campaign strategy firm that Banks hired] said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

“The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn’t important, but boy was immigration important. The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn’t the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile.”

Arron Banks.
Funder of Leave.EU (the UKIP campaign)

Say he spent £11 million of his own money funding the campaign.
Which was centred on immigration. And had no truck with truth.

Brave New World.
;doh


Whichever side of the fence you are on, doesn't that make you sad/angry/despairing (delete as appropriate)?

OutcastLondoner

Where's that from MrsG?

MrsGrey

Sorry, I should have put a link.

They are direct quotes from here http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage

pardewalegend

FTSE 100 finished today above pre brexit levels ;whistle
The funniest quote I've seen is that the brexit has affected some peoples mental health
Oh do me a favour

MrsGrey

And the FTSE 250, which consists of companies more focused on the UK economy than those in the FTSE 100, has not recouped its post-Brexit losses. Despite a 3.2% rise on Wednesday it is still down 7.6% since the result of the vote.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Clawed back some of Friday and Monday's losses yesterday, should do the same again today.

Hopefully I'll have enough to finish the WALL before Donald gets in

;wahoo

pardewalegend

It's peoples mental health I'm concerned about ;ok

NEoldiron

If you Brexiteers think that everything will be rosy again you're mistaken.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/28/global-markets-rally-a-dead-cat-bounce.html

If we really exit the EU but want to stay part of the single market, immigration (the main selling point for Leave) will not change but the economy will be far worse.

Just saying
;whistle

Dodger58

We will always have access to the single market, the question is whether there is a cost we have to pay. If we have to pay a cost, then the natural balance to that will be that the single market countries will have to pay a cost for access to the UK market ... just saying ;whistle

MrsGrey

No doubt that will be up for negotiation, with tarrifs set in a way that doesn't fall foul of WTO rules on protectionism, presumably.


(Not that I fully understand all that WTO stuff.)

baracks_a_hammer

17m people would consider you to be the mistaken one, NE

Dodger58

From NEoldiron's link:

Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital called this rally a dead cat bounce - a temporary recovery in prices as speculators try to cover their trades - in his latest research note.

The key word in this quote is "speculators" - speculation the currency of the media and those who prefer to bet for a living, compared to those who work for a living, either in creating/manufacturing or in the service industry. Basically bets were placed, they (generally) lost and are trying to recover their positions through short term actions. Hopefully they will lose more and learn the error of their ways.

Everything would not be rosy whichever option was selected last week. The difference will be in whether we have control over our own affairs or leave it to either unelected eurocrats in Europe, or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people. I am happy with my choice.

TheMadcapLaughs

NE, I think being held to ransom by the markets, free loaders and speculators is more indicative of whats wrong with the World than blaming 17 million out voters. Perhaps we should pay less attention to the markets and more attention to real people with real views.

ASLEFshrugged

Dodger58 said:

We will always have access to the single market, the question is whether there is a cost we have to pay. If we have to pay a cost, then the natural balance to that will be that the single market countries will have to pay a cost for access to the UK market ... just saying ;whistle

There most certainly will be a cost to pay, if we take Norway as an example of a country not in the EU but with full access to the single market then we'll end up paying exactly the same as we are now with the same free movement of labour but with no say in the decision making.

IronHerb

Dodger58 said:

Everything would not be rosy whichever option was selected last week. The difference will be in whether we have control over our own affairs or leave it to either unelected eurocrats in Europe, or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people. I am happy with my choice.

For 'unelected eurocrats in Europe' read the Civil Service and for 'or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people' read the current UK government.

So nothing changes really does it?

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

NEoldiron

Aslef ;ok

baracks_a_hammer

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

That's not what he said according to the way I read his post ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

I had promised myself not to get involved anymore. But one other thing that really grates is a huge finger is being pointed at a small number of boneheads pushing there racist bile. Whilst the same set of people pointing this finger think nothing of shouting, screeching and verbally abusing Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, abuse is abuse is abuse. Sorry, just one other thing; If you want to gauge the lack of respect politicians have for the voting public, just watch five minutes of these morons in The House of Commons after David Cameron spoke for the first time after Brexit the other day, the contempt, mockery and ridicule for the decision from both sides of The House was truly shocking. These people tell us how to behave, what`s right and acceptable behaviour? I honestly think that if the politicians do choose to ignore the referendum result then we are storing up a heap of trouble that will make a little market volatility look pretty insignificant.