The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

ASLEFshrugged

imagelost said:

Ne old iron
I know 3 people that wanted to stay in!
And approx 70 wanted out
Me and a lots mates done postal vote in pen
Polls issued pencils ,,, for voting !!!!!
Justsaying

;clap

Polling stations always have pencils, have done since I first voted in 1979. If they used pens they'd all be nicked by lunchtime...

MrsGrey

“It was taking an American-style media approach. What Goddard Gunster [US political campaign strategy firm that Banks hired] said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

“The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn’t important, but boy was immigration important. The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn’t the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile.”

Arron Banks.
Funder of Leave.EU (the UKIP campaign)

Say he spent £11 million of his own money funding the campaign.
Which was centred on immigration. And had no truck with truth.

Brave New World.
;doh


Whichever side of the fence you are on, doesn't that make you sad/angry/despairing (delete as appropriate)?

OutcastLondoner

Where's that from MrsG?

MrsGrey

Sorry, I should have put a link.

They are direct quotes from here http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage

pardewalegend

FTSE 100 finished today above pre brexit levels ;whistle
The funniest quote I've seen is that the brexit has affected some peoples mental health
Oh do me a favour

MrsGrey

And the FTSE 250, which consists of companies more focused on the UK economy than those in the FTSE 100, has not recouped its post-Brexit losses. Despite a 3.2% rise on Wednesday it is still down 7.6% since the result of the vote.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Clawed back some of Friday and Monday's losses yesterday, should do the same again today.

Hopefully I'll have enough to finish the WALL before Donald gets in

;wahoo

pardewalegend

It's peoples mental health I'm concerned about ;ok

NEoldiron

If you Brexiteers think that everything will be rosy again you're mistaken.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/28/global-markets-rally-a-dead-cat-bounce.html

If we really exit the EU but want to stay part of the single market, immigration (the main selling point for Leave) will not change but the economy will be far worse.

Just saying
;whistle

Dodger58

We will always have access to the single market, the question is whether there is a cost we have to pay. If we have to pay a cost, then the natural balance to that will be that the single market countries will have to pay a cost for access to the UK market ... just saying ;whistle

MrsGrey

No doubt that will be up for negotiation, with tarrifs set in a way that doesn't fall foul of WTO rules on protectionism, presumably.


(Not that I fully understand all that WTO stuff.)

baracks_a_hammer

17m people would consider you to be the mistaken one, NE

Dodger58

From NEoldiron's link:

Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital called this rally a dead cat bounce - a temporary recovery in prices as speculators try to cover their trades - in his latest research note.

The key word in this quote is "speculators" - speculation the currency of the media and those who prefer to bet for a living, compared to those who work for a living, either in creating/manufacturing or in the service industry. Basically bets were placed, they (generally) lost and are trying to recover their positions through short term actions. Hopefully they will lose more and learn the error of their ways.

Everything would not be rosy whichever option was selected last week. The difference will be in whether we have control over our own affairs or leave it to either unelected eurocrats in Europe, or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people. I am happy with my choice.

TheMadcapLaughs

NE, I think being held to ransom by the markets, free loaders and speculators is more indicative of whats wrong with the World than blaming 17 million out voters. Perhaps we should pay less attention to the markets and more attention to real people with real views.

ASLEFshrugged

Dodger58 said:

We will always have access to the single market, the question is whether there is a cost we have to pay. If we have to pay a cost, then the natural balance to that will be that the single market countries will have to pay a cost for access to the UK market ... just saying ;whistle

There most certainly will be a cost to pay, if we take Norway as an example of a country not in the EU but with full access to the single market then we'll end up paying exactly the same as we are now with the same free movement of labour but with no say in the decision making.

IronHerb

Dodger58 said:

Everything would not be rosy whichever option was selected last week. The difference will be in whether we have control over our own affairs or leave it to either unelected eurocrats in Europe, or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people. I am happy with my choice.

For 'unelected eurocrats in Europe' read the Civil Service and for 'or an elected European Government which may or may not reflect the common view of the British people' read the current UK government.

So nothing changes really does it?

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

NEoldiron

Aslef ;ok

baracks_a_hammer

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

That's not what he said according to the way I read his post ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

I had promised myself not to get involved anymore. But one other thing that really grates is a huge finger is being pointed at a small number of boneheads pushing there racist bile. Whilst the same set of people pointing this finger think nothing of shouting, screeching and verbally abusing Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, abuse is abuse is abuse. Sorry, just one other thing; If you want to gauge the lack of respect politicians have for the voting public, just watch five minutes of these morons in The House of Commons after David Cameron spoke for the first time after Brexit the other day, the contempt, mockery and ridicule for the decision from both sides of The House was truly shocking. These people tell us how to behave, what`s right and acceptable behaviour? I honestly think that if the politicians do choose to ignore the referendum result then we are storing up a heap of trouble that will make a little market volatility look pretty insignificant.

ASLEFshrugged

Madcap - we live in a global economy, especially the UK where the banking and financial sector account for a huge chunk of our economy. If the 2008 crash taught us anything it is that nations have little control over the markets and as a country with an economy heavily dependent on financial services we are going to suffer when the market is volatile.

If we don't want the UK economy to be so susceptible to market fluctuations then we need greater regulation of the financial sector (like Germany for example) but that is certainly not what those leading the Brexit campaign (UKIP, the Johnson/Gove wing of the Tories) want, if anything they want less regulation

NEoldiron

Interesting reading:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/everything-will-be-on-the-table-in-brexit-talks-says-french-minister

Scary reading:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/uk-lacks-expertise-for-trade-talks-with-europe-says-top-civil-servant

OutcastLondoner

MadCap, while I think everyone agrees that plenty of people who voted out aren't racist, it irritates me that people also try to downplay it. Maybe people you spoke to didn't vote for that reason but there are plenty of others who clearly say they did. The media coverage has long been heavily linked to fear about immigration, it was a heavy theme in the campaign (and even the general election with the Labour mug) and what is happening now in terms of racist/xenophobic abuse shows who has been emboldened.

I also have tried not to get too involved because I don't think there's much use trying to blame people who voted a certain way or to predict whether the economy will/won't collapse instead of discussing what exit route will suit the whole country.

But it grates me when people try to minimise the role of racism in this thing, including the Labourites who think this is all about their little Westminster world. Everyone's little discussions about what will or won't happen to the economy, single market etc. are all theoretical. In reality, racism has increased.

TheMadcapLaughs

baracks_a_hammer said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

What about the 16 million Remain voters? Are they not real people with real views?

That's not what he said according to the way I read his post ;ok

Exactly, not my point at all, my point is shouldn`t we be listening to people rather than peering over our shoulders at markets. That point would stand whoever had won. If the result was reversed then we would be staying in The EU, but surely 16 million indicating that they would like to leave would perhaps ring alarm bells with the politicians that despite buoyant markets and the Remainers celebrating with bunting and street parties, not all was rosy amongst the general populus. The vote was extremely close which is why in the spirit of conciliation and cooperation the next government should be a coalition. IMO. However, given that the outers won (by a small margin admittedly) the focus of the government should be securing the best future for Britain, but with Brexit as its primary goal.

TheMadcapLaughs

ASLEF, couldn`t agree more regarding the financial sector and the global economy. Britain is over reliant on this sector to its detriment. If a World economy can be held to ransom on the whims and fancies of a few super rich gamblers then there is something fundamentally wrong. Perhaps we should take this opportunity, in the long term, to start making things again. We wouldn`t then need to hold our breath if Mr Super Rich Gambler gets out of the bed the wrong side. Naive and idealistic possibly, but something needs to change.

Yeoldhammer

The leave campaign even came out and said they will weaponise the immigration issue as the economy issue was losing the fight for them.

MrsGrey

MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...

eskimoking

Getting fed up with people saying the FTSE 100 has recovered and ignoring (or not being aware of) the FTSE 250s decline.

Ignorance helps the argument I suppose.

TheMadcapLaughs

Outcast, I agree with everything you say. The actions of these boneheads should be condemned in the strongest terms by both sides, particularly Nigel Farage. Believe me, I wouldn`t normally ally myself with the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove etc etc. and I think both Remainers and Outers are split across the normal political divides. And believe me I wasn`t trying to downplay the seriousness of it, it`s just that to some Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage appear to be fair game.

TheMadcapLaughs

MrsGrey said:

MadCap, the problem is that in he global economy, others elsewhere in the world can make things much more cheaply than we can ...

So why do we make anything at all. Defeatist attitude IMO. And talking directly to manufacturers/importers the impression I get is that the cost gap is shrinking. Hence the reason I said "in the long term".