The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50
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Comments
There's a difference between referring to
immigration control
100s of millions for the NHS
Both of these things were promised, explicitly, by the leaders and campaigners for 'Leave' as things that leaving the EU would bring about.
So asking a Leaver if they believed these things is a fair question. And post-exit, looking to see if these things are actually delivered is reasonable test.
However,
WW3 and Armageddon - are exaggerated phrases uses by Leavers (not Remainers) to characterise as ridiculous warnings of potential consequences by remain' campaigners - none of whom actually said leaving would precipitate either of those things.
Yes i did put a lot of research into the referendum and decided to vote leave,a decision i am still happy with.
To be fair there were people on both sides who have voted without really researching it and as for lies and half-truths once again both sides were guilty of it.
The people have spoken and have voted to leave the EU,if the result had been to remain i would have accepted it because that is what you call democracy.
The problem for Leavers who voted in good conscience, and in an informed way, is that in certain quarters the Leave campaign was conducted with heavy overtones of racism.
It is clear that not all Leavers are racist, it may well be that the majority are not racist, but it is undeniably the case that a section of those who voted Leave did so with a racist agenda.
The UK is currently undergoing the sort of negative short-term economic impact which was predicted.
Whether these are simply the growing pains of a freshly democratic, financially stable force in the global markets, or the start of a long-term economic downturn remains to be seen.
The longer it takes to initiate the process of leaving, and the longer it takes to find an agreement with the EU, the longer the current financial problems will last.
This paper (from the Centre for European Reform, an independent, pro-European but 'critical' think-tank) contains a detailed examination of the possible economic outcomes post-Brexit:
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/attachments/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf
and their analysis of how Leave won:
https://www.cer.org.uk/insights/how-leave-outgunned-remain-battle-five-ms
Should such a momentous decision really be simply made on first past the post?
What if it turns out (as it seems to be doing) that claims the Leave campaign made were simply untrue?
Is it OK to have such a significant decision based on what, in the end, would turn out to be lies?
Hardly the breakthrough for democracy some people are trumpeting it as.
The commonplace seems to be 'both sides lied', so it evens itself out, but I'm not sure what the Remain lies amount to.
So Mike, now that some of the dust has settled, it seems more than likely that the UK (or whatever is left of it) will be worse off economically and politically and without the promised immigration control (if we want to still have access to the single market) and the already broken promise of extra 100's of millions for the NHS.
From the Bristol Post:
Arron Banks, who bankrolled the Leave.EU campaign to the tune of 5.6 million, said they won because 'facts don't work' in a campaign.
But his comments about how his campaign strategists shunned 'facts' for 'emotions' are sure to enrage opponents and voters already feeling betrayed by back-tracking by the leaders of the Leave campaign on issues like spending on the NHS and immigration.
He said of the campaign, for which he hired American political strategists: "It was taking an American-style media approach. What they said early on was 'facts don't work' and that's it. The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn't work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It's the Trump success.
"The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn't important, but boy was immigration important," Mr Banks said.
"The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn't the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile," he added.
I would think that there are a fair few who are feeling that they've been mugged.
I trust you don't count yourself as one of them.
You also say "as for lies and half-truths once again both sides were guilty of it", could you mention some of those that came from the Remainers?
I think in time we will be able to agree better trading terms for us, you can throw whatever think tank you like at that only time will tell.
I also believe and I can only judge from where I am based that free movement has had a dreadful effect on the nearby towns, schools and hospital and crime rate.
So for me the leave party had better come through with the trade deals and controlled immigration.
Hope that was honest enough ;ok
1,Eu migrants will have to leave the country within six months if they cannot get a job...David Cameron.
There is no mechanism,and no legal right to send people home if they do not have a job.
2,British exporters will face a wall of tariffs if britain leaves the EU.
Top german industriasts have said imposing measures between the two countries would be a very foolish thing.
3,David Cameron telling voters he would be able to reform EU migration rules if remain wins.
Jean-claude juncker has flatly refused making any further changes to freedom of movement.
The people who were mugged were the ones that believed everything that came out of a politicians mouth.I wasn't one of them EG The whole £350 million would be spent on the nhs.
I will try not to get personal so i will leave it at that!
How else we gonna do it?
Seems fair to me, a referendum took us in, a referendum has taken us out.
Grey - keep seeing this quoted by 'remainers' - just out of interest was this a view you held prior to the results of the referendum becoming known? Only I can't find any mention of this as a concern in any of you pre-vote posts.
Smacks a bit of sour grapes because the result wasn't to your or other remainers liking - just my opinion of course.
Be surprised if I hadn't expressed my view somewhere on here:
This was not an issue I thought should have gone to a referendum at all.
Total votes cast was the method in the referendum and when people don't get what they want they complain that it's not good enough.
I saw a woman on the news say we can't accept the result because only 36% of the electorate voted to leave. She ignored the fact that only 33% voted to remain.
How does her logic work to say that in effect remain won. What leads her to believe that the other 31% would vote remain. If that 31% couldn't be bothered to vote then they have absolutely no right or grounds to complain about the result.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36449974
On (2) - the German industrialists are entitled to their views but (a) they won't be in charge of the negotiating team and (b) even if they are right, that relates only to trade between Germany and the UK. We may well face a wall of tariffs in trading with other nations.
So the two examples of 'lies' you give are not really proven to be lies. imo.
See here for a different take on Germany's possible attitude:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-fallout-analysis-by-baml-uk-eu-and-german-trade-negotiations-2016-7
No one can know for sure what trade tariffs the UK will face until the agreements have been made.
Personally, my feeling was that if the UK ditched the single market, they would be worse off in terms of tariffs and trading with the EU, and less able to make preferential deals with other trading countries
If they didn't ditch the single market, then there was no real point in leaving.
They shouldn't be here anyway!!
Unless!!
Speak the language
Clean criminal record
Clean health record
Have a skill
Have a job to go to ( sponsor)
Have money to be self sufficient as the state will pay for nothing.
That's not racist that's common sense there is no point allowing anyone to come unless they are going to make us better
But it's not really - it's not the democracy we have in the UK. Our democracy is the kind (there are others) where the people's democratic right is to vote for an MP who then toddles off to Westminster and gets on with the job of governing the country within a framework of a parliamentary democracy. (And it's worth bearing in mind that it is very rare for MPs to be allowed to vote other than in the way their Party tells them to.)
Referendums are basically a government-run opinion poll.
They have no legal power (Unless the specific referendum was set up to be legally binding, which this one isn't).
Now I'm not saying that when Parliament get round to debating and deciding on when and how to trigger Article 50, they should ignore the outcome of the referendum. But they should either, as per custom and practice in our system of parliamentary democracy, vote as they are told to by their Party OR be given a free vote and vote according to what they think is best.
(Edit: plus, the various referendums are basically cobbled-together affairs: who is eligible to vote seems to vary. How can that be 'democracy'?)
Also, the absence of clicked agrees can in no way be taken to imply disagrees ;wink