The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

thornburyiron

Slav you say we do not live in a plebiscite but that's exactly what Ken Clarke called the voters. He said MPs can't leave it up to the plebiscite to decide what they want to do. It's for MPs to tell them what's best

NEoldiron

"Onme'eadson" said
Bearing in mind that 37% of the voting population who bothered to vote, voted leave.

And that 37% did so mainly on the basis of 2 blatant lies from the Leave side - control of immigration and 100's of millions for the NHS.
How many would vote the same way now that those lies have been exposed and in light of the current situation.
There should be a re-run with every eligible voter urged to participate - what have the Leave side to worry about if they are claiming that it's the will of the people to leave. For me 37% is not enough to continue with this.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

But indirectly it does, discrimination what every way you badge it (positive, indirect etc.) is still discrimination because you are giving someone and unfair advantage. The majority of Europeans migrating to the UK through free movement are of white European ethnicity so non-white non-Europeans (who are the majority of non-EU Migrants) see this as a racist policy, as they have to follow another, more arduous process to gain entry to the UK, that is their perception - hence the reference to the person asking the questions race.

I never said it wasn't discrimination (that is, distinguishing between 2 groups and treating them differently). It isn't even 'indirectly' it is direct.

What I said was, its not RACISM (which is what you originally posited): because the distinguishing isn't not being done on the grounds of race.

And whether it is the minority or majority of non-Europeans makes not a jot of difference. It's NOT racism; they ARE being treated differently from EU migrants, but not on the grounds of their race.

The non-EU rules cover South Africa, Australia, America .. as well as countries like India and Pakistan. All of those nationals, whatever their race, seeking entry to the UK are treated the same as each other.

Any immigration policy (even the harmonised one being proposed by the Brexiters will be discriminatory - on the grounds of profession, or age for example - however the points system is ultimately decided). If there was no discrimination, (that is, distinguishing between potential immigrants) we would just have an open door policy, or a blanket ban.

NEoldiron

billy

"The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction."

;ok

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

A couple of days ago The Lib Dems (remember them) promised that the cornerstone of their next election manifesto would be a promise to never invoke article 50. I think of the other parties the only ones with the courage to say they will invoke article 50 immediately are UKIP. The Conservatives and The Labour Party seem to be in complete disarray and I think both will fudge the issue. Perhaps the next general election will be a straight choice between The Lib Dems and UKIP. Blimey.

The Lib Dems can definitely smell blood, if you look at a map of who voted what there are a lot of Tory seats in the Home Counties that backed staying in the EU, constituencies like Winchester or Lewes which were Lib Dem seats until recently

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

After the bloodbath of 2015 this could get them back in the game.

OutcastLondoner

The stuff about non-EU migrants is nonsense. UK chose to almost completely shut down migration from those places itself. Searching non-white people en masse at train stations for their documents was something they did themselves. I've worked in several non-EU countries and everyone will tell you the UK is the only one where it's almost impossible to get a holiday visa.

grey_til_I_dye

AdMeus

So lets say they don't, at the next election UKIP base their campaign on "enacting Article 50 as the majority in the referendum voted for" and all the other parties went with not enacting - who do you think would form the next government or be the party with the most MP's in a coalition?

If we had proportional representation you might be right, but we don't.

UKIP increased their share of the vote to 13% in the last election, and lost a seat, ending up with just 1 MP.

simonc

McHammer said:

i think we should put in a 2 million bid for Obamma.

You can have him on a free

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Herb,

Re Siemens in Hull.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mSs2NQ13JXeQ4AlJlLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZmVxM3N0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--/RV=2/RE=1467172816/RO=10/RU=https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/siemens-freezes-new-uk-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote/RK=0/RS=uEyaCFc6ewRwlpSGMADeGqmPvNk-

Despite the scare headline in the Guardian today, Siemens did say prior to the vote (as has been repeated in the article above today) when they openly said they would prefer a remain vote, it would not affect the 1,000 jobs or investment already put in, but it would put a freeze on further investment until the situation was clearer (which is also repeated in that article).

I can only assume this re-hash of an article in the Local Humber Business news from 14th April based on a statement from Siemens around that time - so it is not 'News' and also if you actually read the Siemens statement some of the quotes attributed to it in both articles are not from it, but local MP's interpretation of the statement.

Also the 1,000 jobs the HSBC are moving to Paris - would it come as a surprise to anyone that this had been on the cards for some time and this was the perfect excuse. My Cousins son (who works in the city) said it was a bit of an open secret because some of the people he is friends with were offered a resettlement package to move to Paris a couple of months ago - these are the staff who work in section where transactions process in Euro's were carried out and he thinks that almost all of those 1,00 jobs will be taken by people currently working in the UK HSBC Office, se the hobs are not being lost, but transferred - so there will be little if any redundancies.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Mrs G, I did not say it was, it was the person on Question time who said it was and referenced himself being Asian. If he and others feel it is and have that perception, then their must be some substance in it for them.

Mr G. That was the last election, I point to the lib Dems at the same one, look what happened there because their supporters felt betrayed.

NEold: Although those two items were used as headline grabbers, that was not the sole or main reasons people voted leave. I have spoken t a few since the result an one thing that has not been picked up by either side that seemed to be a factor was:

The EU have a history of taking certain things as indicators for them to steam ahead with the 'EU Superstate' dream. When things don't go their way (e.g. Ireland first Maestricht Treaty vote - said no so should have been dead in the water - which the EU said it would be so they change the rules to allow another vote and won it.) they will change the rules to suit themselves to get what they want. So if it had been a remain vote there was a concern that the EU would take this as a green light for a lot of other changes to drive towards the EU Superstate, and we would have no option but to be dragged into it.

Also the Qualified Majority Voting so not all member states had to be in agreement was a concern. Despite the PM negotiating 'Opt outs and Veto's' and those already in place, it was questioned that would the EU see a remain vote as a green light to use the qualified voting to remove these and impose other changes not in the UK's interest.

Neither of these were discussed much and therefore for people with those concerns, a leave vote was the only option.

TheMadcapLaughs

For all the Remainers decrying the result and blaming the ignorant masses who voted out, consider this. Before the last election Mr Cameron promised the great unwashed a referendum on The EU, a simple in and out. All the experts (who are never wrong) claimed to a man that it was inevitable that there would be no overall majority at the last election, there would be a hung parliament, and the basic question was being asked of who The Lib Dems would sleep with this time. However, shock, horror:

Come the General Election: The Conservatives win a thumping majority, crikey: Popular Dave ;wave ;biggrin ;champagne

Now Popular Dave, true to his word, offers the great unwashed said referendum. He campaigns tirelessly for The UK remaining in the EU, what could go wrong.

Come The Referendum: Popular Dave takes a beating, The Outers win:
Not So Popular Dave ;nonono ;weep ;sbrew

Could it be that the Great British Public are not so thick after all, could it be that the only issue come last General Election was the promise of a referendum, and the Conservatives won a thumping majority based on this. If so then the experts, the politicians, the captains of industry et al got well and truly hoodwinked by the thickies.

























TWICE ;lol

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

Your post seems to ignore the fact that the split of the vote was 52 - 48, so a great many of the 'great unwashed' are not included n your analysis.

SuzanneClaret

I washed.

I washed on the day I voted.

For all the good it did.

MrsGrey

All the experts (who are never wrong) claimed to a man that it was inevitable that there would be no overall majority at the last election,

I think you'll find it was opinion polls.

Who got it spectacularly wrong, again, in the referendum.

makes you wonder why people keep commissioning them. ;lol

NEoldiron

Admeus, suggest you listen to this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zjmdp

and I've read that there's about a million more Regrexiteers

Moojor

NEoldiron said:

Admeus, suggest you listen to this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zjmdp

and I've read that there's about a million more Regrexiteers

and the same "poll" says that around 700,000 regretted voting remain, so the result would remain unchanged if those people had voted the other way.

MrsGrey

Poll, you say ;hmm

Moojor

It was taken by the Daily Mail...

MrsGrey

;lol

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Come the General Election: The Conservatives win a thumping majority

The Conservatives got 36.9% of the vote, 6.5% ahead of Labour with a 10 seat majority, hardly thumping when compared with Blair's 43.2%/177 majority in 1997 or Thatcher's 42.2%/102 majority in 1987, even John Major got 41.9%/21 majority in 1992.

Just sayin'

NEoldiron

Moojor, why would people regret voting to remain if the leave side won anyway? Does not compute ;hmm

Moojor

NEoldiron, I don't know, but it was, I believe, the other side of the poll you were quoting.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yes, Mrs G, the pollsters, who would be the recognised experts in their field. The point is that experts are often wrong and continually readjust forecasts in light of real and actual events. The other point was that, to a lot of people, the chance at a referendum was the one and only thing that concerned them, not the fact that the Conservatives were doing such a marvellous job. I think most people missed this. I see that to some extent that World markets and Sterling have gained a little ground over the past couple of days. After the initial shock of Brexit things will calm down. What could be more damaging long term is not the result but the subsequent political vacuum. I`m a little disappointed, but not surprised, at the level of cowardice displayed amongst politicians of all parties. What the country needs is strong, determined leadership. The sooner they sort themselves out, trigger article 50, remove any remaining uncertainty, and work towards whats best for this country the better, I have a feeling that, not unsurprisingly, markets will recover further, and Mrs G. you can go back to buying hats. I don`t understand the negativity. The UK has only been members of The EU (The EEC, Common Market) for about 40 years, but now our very future and survival, we are told, lies on one path only, and that`s staying as members of The EU. I find that quite frightening. Are Remainers saying that for all eternity, come what may, after a very brief 40 years of this countries history, that we are now stuck on this path because veering off it is too scary. Really?What kind of future is that?

MrsGrey

The UK has only been members of The EU (The EEC, Common Market) for about 40 years, but now our very future and survival, we are told, lies on one path only, and that`s staying as members of The EU. I find that quite frightening. Are Remainers saying that for all eternity, come what may, after a very brief 40 years of this countries history, that we are now stuck on this path because veering off it is too scary.

I can't speak for other Remainers, you'll have to ask them.

For me, I am not convinced by arguments that refer to the pre-EU period, saying it was OK then so it will be OK again. The world is very different place from what it was 50, 60, 70 and more years ago.

Also for me, I voted Remain because I don't believe that the supposed negatives resulting from EU membership are all that bad, or that they are not a price worth paying. And in some cases, what Brexiters see as negatives I see as positives. Those issues played a major part in my decision.
As for your question about whether we have to stay in for all eternity - I'm not saying that. Who knows what the future may hold, and what convincing arguments and evidence might be made. For me, they haven't been made yet.

--

Finally, I've not seen anything or anybody who is reputable that says

our very future and survival

depend on being In. (But then I haven't read everything ;biggrin ) I think you are exaggerating for effect, or putting up a straw man argument. Maybe? Just a teensy bit?

TheMadcapLaughs

ASLEFshrugged said:

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Come the General Election: The Conservatives win a thumping majority

The Conservatives got 36.9% of the vote, 6.5% ahead of Labour with a 10 seat majority, hardly thumping when compared with Blair's 43.2%/177 majority in 1997 or Thatcher's 42.2%/102 majority in 1987, even John Major got 41.9%/21 majority in 1992.

Just sayin'

Sorry, I got my figures wrong there, in terms of seats, and in terms of what was predicted. And I concede, not a thumping victory, but an unexpected majority.

TheMadcapLaughs

But Mrs G, are you going to continue buying hats?

I voted out cos I don`t think we`ll get another chance. And given that, I genuinely believe that long term we will be better off. Now or never for me. And yes I have allowed for a little artistic licence in my prose.

And ASLEF, stop already with the facts and figures...................

ASLEFshrugged

But that is my sole purpose in life, to annoy people with facts...

TheMadcapLaughs

Too clever by arf (as me Mum used to say). Destroyed so many of my arguments with facts and figures that I wish I`d voted Remain now.............................

NEoldiron

To all Brexiteers

From Wiki:

"The service sector dominates the UK economy, contributing around 78% of GDP; the financial services industry is particularly important and London is the world's largest financial centre.
The UK financial services industry added gross value of £116,363 million to the UK economy in 2011. The UK's exports of financial and business services make a significant positive contribution towards the country's balance of payments.

London is a major centre for international business and commerce and is one of the three "command centres" of the global economy (alongside New York City and Tokyo). There are over 500 banks with offices in London, and it is the leading international centre for banking, insurance, Eurobonds, foreign exchange trading and energy futures. London's financial services industry is primarily based in the City of London and Canary Wharf. The City houses the London Stock Exchange, the London International Financial Futures and Options Exchange, the London Metal Exchange, Lloyds of London, and the Bank of England. Canary Wharf began development in the 1980s and is now home to major financial institutions such as Barclays Bank, Citigroup and HSBC, as well as the UK Financial Services Authority. London is also a major centre for other business and professional services, and four of the six largest law firms in the world are headquartered there.

Several other major UK cities have large financial sectors and related services. Edinburgh has one of the largest financial centres in Europe and is home to the headquarters of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group and Standard Life."

You might want to check these out too, if you don't mind a little heavy reading.


http://londonfirst.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/London-and-the-EU_single-page.pdf

https://euobserver.com/news/123132

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/279331/bis_14_592_balance_of_competences_review_government_reponse_to_the_call_for_evidence.pdf


How long do you Brexiteers thing this situation will last outside the EU?
Especially what do you think will happen to GDP?
;hmm

imagelost

Ne old iron
I know 3 people that wanted to stay in!
And approx 70 wanted out
Me and a lots mates done postal vote in pen
Polls issued pencils ,,, for voting !!!!!
Justsaying

;clap