The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

grey_til_I_dye

baracks

That's an opinion (not one I share.)

Do you have news stories from other sources to show that the BBC have mis-reported these issues?

Moojor

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

baracks_a_hammer

grey_til_I_dye said:

baracks

That's an opinion (not one I share.)

Do you have news stories from other sources to show that the BBC have mis-reported these issues?

No that's not the point - I believe they will be more keen to give airtime to people like Fuchs who has the views he does - so the opposing views might not readily be shared at all

baracks_a_hammer

Moojor said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

brookingsirons

I voted remain and hope we get the chance to vote again as many who voted out
who I know now wish they had voted remain sad that so many got it wrong because it was all about immigration and they didn't look at the bigger picture .

right or wrong only time will tell .

MrsGrey

There was no mention that all £350 million would go to the NHS so where that came from I don't know. I do think I did see a quote where it was mentioned that "the £350 million saved could help fund the NHS" and something about how many hospitals or medical staff it could pay for, so maybe it was taken from that and then took on a life of its own as a promise, I would imagine as there has been articles about this with apologies from the leave camp, it must have been repeated as such.

If the Leave camp claim it was never said like that, but somebody got hold of the wrong end of the stick and it then took on a life of its own, they are lying.

If you look on the official Leave Campaign site, they have a page for downloading and printing their campaign posters and slogans etc. for individuals to use.

One such official poster says:
Lets give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week, Vote Leave. Take Control.

There an implicit - perhaps even an explicit - promise that he NHS will be given £350m a week if we 'Leave'.




There are also headline slogans like this one 'Vote Leave to invest an extra £100m into the NHS every week' which is used on the official campaign website.

So this isn't just Farage going off-piste, or the press misquoting.

Yes, the small print rows back on this, saying things like 'it could enable the NHS to have billions more' and 'it could be used to abolish VAT on energy bills' but I maintain that these slogans with their implicit promises were deliberately misleading.

Vague rhetoric like 'Vote Leave. take back control' is one thing, but there were slogans and soundbytes (and things painted on the side of official campaign buses driving Gove and Johnson and other Leavers' around to rallies) which are very specific and imply promises, not possibilities and perhapses.

People like IDS who went along with it at the time and now after the event are trying to say it was all a misunderstanding are despicable, imo.

Anyone who want to can of course take the view that it was all a bit of misquoting that got out of hand (although why no Leavers like IDS spoke up at the time to put the record straight, I don't know). However, I think it was a deliberate strategy.

I just think its a shame people fell for it: it was always an empty promise, and undeliverable by the people who made it (even assuming, which I don't) that they made it in good faith.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/campaign_resources
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health

Moojor

baracks_a_hammer said:

Moojor said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

So why couldn't we just negoiate indenpendant deals with those countries from within the EU?

MrsGrey

baracks_a_hammer said:

Moojor said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

No, that would be the World Trade Organisation ;ok

The UK and EU countries individually are members of the WTO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization

grey_til_I_dye

baracks_a_hammer said:

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

baracks

That is not what Boris is saying.

He stresses the UK will remain part of the single market, in which case the UK will continue to be bound by the relevant EU rules and legislation.

No one that I have seen is suggesting the UK would have individual arrangements with EU countries.

MrsGrey

Moojor said:

baracks_a_hammer said:

Moojor said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

So why couldn't we just negoiate indenpendant deals with those countries from within the EU?

I don't think so moojor. It appears (but I'm not an expert) that the EU as a whole negotiates EU-non EU trade agreements on behalf of its members.

;hmm

OutcastLondoner

Moojor

MrsGrey said:

Moojor said:

baracks_a_hammer said:

Moojor said:

grey_til_I_dye said:

The UK will take back control, except where it refers to the Single Market, where it will concede control to the EU.

Should also be noted, that we will of course no longer have any say in those controls/laws etc which are being created by the EU in regards to how it operates and trades with countries outside the EU.

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

So why couldn't we just negoiate indenpendant deals with those countries from within the EU?

I don't think so moojor. It appears (but I'm not an expert) that the EU as a whole negotiates EU-non EU trade agreements on behalf of its members.

;hmm

That's what I thought, though happy to be corrected. One of the reasons we should leave the EU is because as part of it you DON'T negotiate your own trade deals and have to accept what the EU as a whole has negotiated.

MrsGrey

;hmm

I suppose so - but I'd have though that as an entity with a much bigger market than the UK, the EU would have more negotiating power with another country than the UK might have and would be able to drive a harder bargain. I don't really know too much about this, though, so am happy to be given more info by any experts. ;wink

Moojor

;hmm

Yeah, has to be something we are missing here. Some part which explains why 1 country has better bargaining power than a collective of 28 countries.

MrsGrey

baracks_a_hammer said:

No that's not the point - I believe they will be more keen to give airtime to people like Fuchs who has the views he does - so the opposing views might not readily be shared at all

Well, in that report, Fuchs got those 3 sentences which were a direct counter view to what Boris said. Boris got about the same amount directly quoted, but also a link to a full (longer) piece he wrote in another newspaper.

Both of which are footnotes to the actual purpose of the article which is reporting Merkel's response to the referendum outcome.

Colchester_Iron

MrsGrey said:

;hmm

I suppose so - but I'd have though that as an entity with a much bigger market than the UK, the EU would have more negotiating power with another country than the UK might have and would be able to drive a harder bargain. I don't really know too much about this, though, so am happy to be given more info by any experts. ;wink

Not an expert but..


My (relatively small) understanding is that the EU does drive a hard bargain and is viewed as being relatively protectionist (hence 9(?) years to thrash out a trade deal with Canada).

Trade deals with the rest of the world would now be in our hands not the EU's. I did read somewhere that more than 50% of Canada's exports to the EU are destined for Britain.

In theory, we COULD be better off in our dealings with the rest of the world.

The stumbling block is our trading with the EU (currently free trading). The end game depends on the strength of position that you believe the UK holds in negotiations. We have a huge trade deficit with the EU so, in theory, the EU has more to lose (in pound note terms) than the UK through refusing to trade/imposing barriers to trade.

Again (sorry ;doh ) I read somewhere that 47% of the UK's exports are destined for the EU.

baracks_a_hammer

grey_til_I_dye said:

baracks_a_hammer said:

And on the flip side the EU will have no say in the controls/laws on how EU countries trade with the U.K. for the many EU companies who will still happy want to do so

baracks

That is not what Boris is saying.

He stresses the UK will remain part of the single market, in which case the UK will continue to be bound by the relevant EU rules and legislation.

No one that I have seen is suggesting the UK would have individual arrangements with EU countries.

And that's not what I've said either - if the eu block of countries wants to trade with the U.K. It will have no say on the controls which the uk will want on its side

MrsGrey

One thing we seem to have plenty of is unemployed Shadow cabinet Ministers and PPSs.

Perhaps we could do a Buy-One-Get-One-Free deal.


#sweeteners

IronHerb

And that's not what I've said either - if the eu block of countries wants to trade with the U.K. It will have no say on the controls which the uk will want on its side

But surely it will within the negotiations. ;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

And a negotiation is two way - if the eu makes it punitive to brtisith companies to export to it, then the uk can easily do likewise to European companies wanting to import to the uk - and I'm sure that'll go down well with the German car manufacturers for example

Colchester_Iron

Latest available data here;

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

shows imports from Germany are 100% greater (in £s) than exports to Germany (April 2016).

IronHerb

So it's 'no change' on trade then? Why did we bother to leave? Oh yeah, control.

Colchester_Iron

Luckily, as it's 'no change', we haven't lost anything. ;biggrin

Moojor

baracks_a_hammer said:

And a negotiation is two way - if the eu makes it punitive to brtisith companies to export to it, then the uk can easily do likewise to European companies wanting to import to the uk - and I'm sure that'll go down well with the German car manufacturers for example

You don't think that any extra import costs etc, will just be reflected in a higher purchasing cost. Meaning that it's the end user who will have to foot the bill?

Colchester_Iron

Moojor

That has always been the point of international trade barriers. Theoretically to protect businesses producing goods in the 'home' country by making imported goods more expensive.

baracks_a_hammer

Have you worked in any import business Mooj?

Just asking, as we've had this debate pre the vote I think

There are products which attract high duties and anti-dumping levies into the uk to protect non uk businesses witihn the eu - so we are already paying higher prices than we (the uk) should do on certain products

grey_til_I_dye

baracks

I think you are missing the point.

If the UK wants to be part of the single market (which Boris has assured us it ill be), it has to abide by EU rules.

Mr Fuchs again:

"If you are in a club you have to follow the rules. If you are out of the club, there will be different rules."

The UK can of course choose not to be part of the single market, and try to negotiate a different agreement with the EU.

My point is that Boris is the one saying the UK will be part of the single market, so perhaps you should take it up with him?

Colchester_Iron

"Throughout the referendum campaign, Leave campaigners argued that the UK would be able to get a better deal than any currently in existence because it is such a big customer of European products."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36641383

brookingsirons

This is the end of the EU as we know it imo , more will follow out of the agreement it could be the end of the Euro .

MrsGrey

AKAHammer63 said:

I think the remainers should be venting their anger there not a leavers IMHO ;ok

I've got enough for both, and a lot left over for Cameron too ;ok