The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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Comments

  • MoojorMoojor
    That's the one MC Hammer. Cheers.
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    If Cameron has stitched up others, then he's a complete coward.

    He offered the people of the UK the choice of IN or OUT, yet when he was confronted with the result NOT of his liking, he decided to quit rather than carry out the wishes of the electorate of whom he had requested their opinion.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    But did he actually PROMISE to do what the referendum said. (Bit like the 'yeah, we didn't actually promise to spend all the EU money on the NHS).

    My view of it is, he promised the referendum as a sop to the right-wing + Eurosceptics, for the short-term political gain of success at the last election.

    Now, his chickens have come home to roost.

    ---

    On a separate, but related note, do any of the 'Leave' campaign folks actually have the authority and power to deliver what they promised in the event of a Brexit win? No, they don't. Yet.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    It looks like there is a power vacuum developing - who knows hat will happen and who will fill that vacuum (Labour and Tory parties.)

    I can see a scenario where there's a new leader of each party, a new general election, a bit of horse-trading behind the scenes, everybody blames it on the old lot, and it's business as usual.

    #NoBrexit
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    edited June 2016
    Mrs G,

    As leader of the country he offered the people their choice. As leader of the country, IMO, his obligation is to follow, and implement, their choice, else why make the offer in the first place.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    I don't disagree.

    He has a moral obligation. imo.

    But so do the leavers.

    Sadly, I feel none of them will see it like that.



    --

    Edit: although, he is leader of the party elected to gvt. If he resigns, it is, imo, the obligation of his party (no matter which personnel are now at the top table) to carry that duty. They were ALL elected on the basis of the referendum promise. They ALL share in the duty to follow through.

    Isn't 'collective responsibility' one of the underpinning principles?
  • LukerzLukerz
    Of course, his decision to stand down and not enforce what the leave campaign want himself does one key thing.

    Buys Britain valuable time.
  • PrestonHammerPrestonHammer
    http://cdn2.btrstatic.com/pics/showpics/large/627823_rF0tekly.jpg
  • simoncsimonc
    Promise a referendum to get the labor voters in the general election - WIn get a majority in the house then campaign against leaving all the time expecting a stay vote. If it had come off it would have been masterful politics now he just looks like a fool. Smart -no, Snake - no, Idiot may be
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    I think it was less to 'get Labour voters' (the left) and more to stop the drain to UKIP and the further right.
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    That may be Luke, but in my eyes cameron is a complete coward.
    He asked a question and panicked when the answer arrived he didn't like.
    He asked - What do you want me, as your PM, to do.....
    Oh well, I don't like that so I'll bottle it

    Cameron, you're a complete and utter coward
  • simoncsimonc
    A large % of the labor vote voted for leave so I don't think it is too much of a stretch to believe that a % of that number voted for a referendum at the general
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    edited June 2016
    Expat_Hammer said:

    That may be Luke, but in my eyes cameron is a complete coward.
    He asked a question and panicked when the answer arrived he didn't like.
    He asked - What do you want me, as your PM, to do.....
    Oh well, I don't like that so I'll bottle it

    Cameron, you're a complete and utter coward

    Totally disagree. I don't like Cameron but he followed his party manifesto by allowing the referendum. He fulfilled his promise. That he doesn't want to negotiate the terms of an agreement he does not believe in is, imo, understandable. Even though I an a Remainer (and by the way old) I would not like anyone negotiating on my behalf when they did not have their heart in it.

    He did the honourable thing.
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    Sorry Herb, one we'll agree to disagree on

    As leader he offered the people of the country their choice on a specific matter, but was unprepared to carry out the duties of his office - to represent the views of the electorate regarding that specific matter - and resigned. Moral - I doubt it, after all he's a politician.

    The attempt at a man is a complete and utter coward in my eyes.
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    edited June 2016
    Mine too.

    Nicked off with his huge pension after selling us down the river.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

    THIS.

    This is what happens when you legitimise racist views by campaigning on a 'immigration is bad' platform.

    You give people who might have previously kept their odious and ignorant and hateful views behind their own front doors the belief that the majority of people feel the same, and thus they are free to express those odious views in public.


    Makes me ashamed to be British.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    expat. I see your p-o-v, but if having gone on the record as being against 'leave' ... if he was leading the leave' negotiations, would he have the confidence of the people? Wouldn't they accuse him of making a mess of it so he could later say 'I told you it was a mistake'?

    Personally, I think he's best butting out at this point now that he's lost.
  • Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_MoyesJorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes
    Herb ;ok

    Agreed. Can't stand Cameron but he shouldn't have to negotiate something be believes is against the best interests of his country.

    If he believes staying in the EU is the best thing for Britain (which I've no doubt he does believe) then he thinks he is doing the right thing for the country by not being any part of it.

    Let the slimeballs Gove and Boris deal with this abject mess of their own making. It's clear now that they wanted a result other than the one they campaigned for. Their only aspirations were to topple Cameron and they've no plan for what's now been left behind.

    Just about the only person who genuinely wanted what's happened is Nigel Farage. Just let that sink in.
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    Feared to be linked ............ and the proof is where ?
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    It's all his fault.

  • Slaven_Cups_His_BeardSlaven_Cups_His_Beard
    Yep!!
  • LukerzLukerz
    SuzanneClaret said:

    It's all his fault.

    Harsh. Sam did what was required....

    ;run

    ;biggrin
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    ;lol


    Bad child.
  • Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_MoyesJorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes
    The referendum undeniably was Cameron's fault. He promised it to pander to the growing UKIP and right-wing to wing an election. For that I'll never forgive him or that slimeball Osborne.

    Nobody has a lower opinion of Cameron than me, and I still think he's done the right thing by resigning. The Leave campaign are banging on now about respective democracy. Well, Cameron has a democratic right to resign his position as leader of the party.

    I think the Leave campaign's real anger at Cameron lies in the fact that they now know those who were apparently the bastions of their campaign have turned out to be malignant sacks of deceitful pus, and nobody wants to step forward and take responsibility for what's happened. It must be worrying for all those voters who wanted Out to see the heads of the campaign suddenly go so quiet. Perhaps they had another agenda?
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    edited June 2016
    Jorderz, cameron asked the people what they wanted HIM to do.

    And bottled it because he didn't like the answer.
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    So Cameron was President? I missed that somewhere along the line....
  • Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_MoyesJorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes
    Expat,

    He really didn't though, did he? He never promised to stay on whatever the result as far as I can remember.

    He asked the public whether they wanted to stay in the EU. It was pretty clear to practically everybody that he would resign should the answer be negative, so I'm very bemused why anybody is surprised.

    The referendum was a very big opinion poll. Nothing within its question or its result deals with who or how it should be enacted.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited June 2016
    expat, with respect no.

    The Tory Party had the offer of a referendum as part of their manifesto.

    The Tory party was elected to govern.

    The question on the ballot paper was

    Should the UK Remain or Leave the EU.

    The Govt ran the referendum.

    The govt can do what it wants with the results.

    We vote in an election for a party to form the govt, we don't vote for its leader.

    We aren't the USA where we vote for the leader - the party itself elects its leader. The party itself is responsibly for delivering (or not) the outcome of this ballot.





  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Otherwise, we get the scenario where electorate say OUT.

    Cameron tells Parliament he's going to trigger Article 50, because he made a promise and the people want him to..

    They say, no you aren't, and vote against it.

    Tory Party have a vote of no confidence.

    He's sacked.

    He's not PM any more.

    He can't trigger anything.

    But that's OK because it was only Dave's idea and promise?
  • Dodger58Dodger58
    Cameron also said he would stand down before the next election before the last election. I think he has made the wrong move, but I respect his right to make the choice he has made.

    As IronHerb says above
    I would not like anyone negotiating on my behalf when they did not have their heart in it.
    a good point.

    But to help unify the country moving forwards I do believe the Brexit negotiation team should feature people from Remain and be cross-party.
This discussion has been closed.