The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

MrsGrey

moojor, I agree with a lot of what you say, esp the failures of the Remain campaign.

(For what its worth, I think they where between a rock and a hard place - albeit of their own making - where to counter the Leave arguments about job shortages, low wages, lack of affordable housing, overcrowding in schools they'd have had to admit it was their own austerity policies and budgets that were to blame).

Re the agreement, yes it is bilateral, nothing to d with the EU. But I can understand why (some) French don't want to play nicely any more. (Although I imagine much of the impetus is coming from politicians with electorates of their own to appease.)

tomkinsworldclass

Slaven_A_Laugh_Lukerz said:

Couldn't believe the comments about "let's take our time" when you've just campaigned that you no longer need the EU. Like me handing in my notice and moaning about how terrible my employer is, then saying but I want a few months to sort out another job and my housing situation.

Get out asap. That's what you wanted. As has been seen already by the reaction from other EU countries, this is going to get petty and turn into a grudge match. That will in no way help the UK negotiate with other EU countries, especially when time isn't on our side.

With respect, given the size of the decision, the complexity around the "divorce" and the general make of the EU I believe its best all round if there is a more considerate and patient approach to leaving. Without dragging on into a long post; the Conservatives have to appoint a new leader which will be in October, then there is appointment of who's actually going to be negotiating the exit, trade deals, etc, etc which is probably the most important aspect for the UK' future; in addition there are the french and german elections coming up which will undoubtedly play a vital role in how good a deal we can get/our bargaining position. Given the potential timetable, there's no great certainty how the EU will develop during this period and the direct or indirect impact/influence Britain will have on the EU;its something that could develop in a way unforeseen, so I'd be in favour of a much more methodical and patient approach personally.

Colchester_Iron

Moojor said:

Personally, this is where I feel the remain campaign failed. So much focus on how bad everything could be if we leave, they didn't bother to actually highlight all the benefits we get from being in the EU.

Nailed it Moojor. Campaign fear did not work. It just annoyed people.

IronHerb

Colchester_Iron said:

Moojor said:

Personally, this is where I feel the remain campaign failed. So much focus on how bad everything could be if we leave, they didn't bother to actually highlight all the benefits we get from being in the EU.

Nailed it Moojor. Campaign fear did not work. It just annoyed people.

But as Mrs G posted, this has nothing to do with the EU.

OutcastLondoner

Apparently Farage said before referendum, it wouldn't really be finished if the vote was 52-48 - though he was thinking about it the other way around.

As much as I'm against the leave (mostly a lot of the campaigning behind it), I do think some of the reaction has gone too far. Acting as if older people don't care about future generations is ridiculous even if I don't agree with their decision.

For those who voted leave. If it becomes clear certain promises the campaign made, like the NHS £350m or stopping free movement or a good deal with EU, cannot be delivered, would you still support leaving? I'm not asking this to provoke anyone, just want to know how people feel because I feel now the vote's over, holding the government accountable should now be the focus.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

Slaven_A_Laugh_Lukerz said:

Couldn't believe the comments about "let's take our time" when you've just campaigned that you no longer need the EU. Like me handing in my notice and moaning about how terrible my employer is, then saying but I want a few months to sort out another job and my housing situation.

;hmm Well I have to give 3 months notice if I wanted to leave and I am pretty sure unless there is a really serious issue which may end up with legal action or by mutual agreement, every one has a period of notice written into their contracts.

This is just another case of the EU trying to bully us, they have to wait for us to invoke Article 50 as is their own requirement. Of course some of them want to rush it and give us a raw deal as a warning to any other members who have the temerity to want to leave.

Regarding the £350 Million - I have to admit I did not pay much attention to or watch much of the debates around this as I thought this was another red herring. However, the one time I did it was about all the discussion around "Actually it's not because we get XXX in rebate and XXX in funding" was going on. The person speaking (think it was the Labour MP Gisela Stuart) said something along the lines of "we do give them the money but don't get it back immediately or deducted off of the money we have to pay initially, we get it back at a later date. So if we did not have to give to them, we could still fund the areas the grants are given to and the rest we can spend where we like, so we could increase spending on the NHS for instance."

There was no mention that all £350 million would go to the NHS so where that came from I don't know. I do think I did see a quote where it was mentioned that "the £350 million saved could help fund the NHS" and something about how many hospitals or medical staff it could pay for, so maybe it was taken from that and then took on a life of its own as a promise, I would imagine as there has been articles about this with apologies from the leave camp, it must have been repeated as such.

Strange, when the Leave campaign kept saying that despite all the scaremongering by the remain camp of some sort of immediate catastrophe, nothing would change immediately after the vote and for sometime afterwards (it would be some years before it did). Now it is over the remain camp are having a go a the leave camp because things are not going to change much for some time - we are still part of the EU and will continue to be so until the negotiations for separation are complete, which will take roughly two years from when Article 50 is enacted.

OutcastLondoner

Can't accuse the elderly of ruining future for youth when they didn't vote.

PrestonHammer

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Grey. This is why I said in an earlier post I hate the expression "take back control". It`s a slogan, a catchphrase, and like so many slogans can be picked apart, and on its own is pretty meaningless. For me the idea of a common market is a sensible and noble idea. This is what we signed up for. Individual nation states that happen to share a continent with common economic goals. At the time this made each individual country stronger from a trading perspective. How the EU grew and evolved from there I personally have found unacceptable. The layers of government and bureaucracy and the costs involved are totally unnecessary and totally unpalatable given the original remit. There was/is no need for what Europe has become and the waste of money just to run the thing I find distasteful to say the least. There are decisions and policies formulated in Europe that have nothing to do with its original goals and I think that is where it has all gone wrong. This has been happening for years, this constant drip drip drip of extended and enhanced Euro powers has been getting under peoples skin, and finally given the chance people have said enough. Put it this way, everyone I spoke to that voted out would have had no problem voting in if the EU had stuck to its original remit. In fact we wouldn`t even be discussing a referendum. We haven`t got it wrong by voting out, Europe has got it wrong by assuming we wanted in whatever it did. Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

This is why I voted out.

ASLEFshrugged

OutcastLondoner said:

Acting as if older people don't care about future generations is ridiculous even if I don't agree with their decision.

Old Mother shrugged - 86yo - voted Remain. The ex-Mrs shrugged parents didn't because they retired to France so didn't get a vote. Now they are now bricking themselves over whether they will still be able to get their free medical treatment, whether they can afford private if they can't or whether they are going to have to sell up and come back to the UK (because the NHS can easily handle more elderly people needing care).

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

Human rights is nothing to do with the EU, the UK was the main driving force behind the European Convention on Human Rights and was the first country to ratify it in 1951. We had those Human Rights before we joined the Common Market in 1973 and all the Human Rights Act 1998 did was make them part of English (and Welsh) Law so that our courts could pass down judgements on them rather than having to refer cases to Strasbourg.

Even if the UK leaves the EU or revoke the Human Rights Act we will still be subject to the ECHR, human rights won't just disappear.

MrsGrey

outcast, am I misreading your post? Your image shows the 'elderly' did vote?

(Not that I am blaming them, I just see a contradiction between your comment + the turnout stats ;hmm )

Expat_Hammer

Mrs G, I think the point Outcast is raising is that us old gribs DID vote and that the yoof were quite absent from the polling stations ;ok

I think ;hmm

Hamstew

That's how I read it. He's saying a low % of youth voted. If more voted it could have easily swung the other way? ;hmm

MrsGrey

I get ya ;ok

deehammer

Mrs Grey, if I am reading him right, I think he means that as only 34% of the young people bothered to vote, how can the elderly be blamed! If they couldn't be bothered to get involved! It's their own fault their future may be damaged.

deehammer

I think my punctuation suffered from fat finger syndrome ;doh

Lukerz

Pretty sure the Glastonbury festival didn't help with the number of young people voting.

OutcastLondoner

Yes my point is about the youth turnout. I dislike blaming the voters when I feel the problems are deeper than that and stem from media/political rhetoric.

I don't think it's fair that some people are accusing the older vote for stealing their future when clearly they didn't claim their future themselves. I think it a larger number of youth had voted the same way the gap between Remain and Leave closes.

SuzanneClaret

That's democracy.

We were given a choice.

We chose.

My team lost.

That's democracy.

Swissiron

Primrose Path
1. Cameron blurts out to TV journalist that the next election is his last. He's desperate to win, so kicks off a prolonged leadership context within the Tory Party for the next 5 years for the sake of avoiding internal criticism in the ead up to the election. Cameron wins, Tory leadership contest starts
2. Bojo, Theresa, Gove et al attend to their images and start preening and muttering
3. Bojo enters the Leave campaign after deciding that this fits for his ambition to be Tory leader. He thinks the Reffo will be won by Remain anyway, and that he will emerge as a dignified leader of the right wing in the party and get a top job.
4. Bojo and Gove, both journalists, stay high profile, enjoy it and keep lying. Farage does his own thing in UKIP areas. Bojo goes everywhere, widens his campaign to make sure he always gets national coverage, and is encouraged to see that polls, bookies and the City still predict a win for Remain, even at the last.
5. Leave wins, Bojo and Gove and other Leave Tories are frightened by the implication of the results, overnight they all together say it's Cameron's "duty" to remain as leader.
6. Cameron immediately resigns in a hurried and muddled speech, but it does make Big Bojo and Little Gove the men who get the blame for the mess which includes a divided England and Wales, Scottish referendum and break up of the UK, new Welsh nationalism, the return of the border and maybe more in Northern Ireland, lasting enmity with European allies esp France and Germany, prob loss of Gibraltar, praise from Trump, slow-breaking recession and social unrest throughout Britain, realisation by a sorry English public that the campaign was based on a pack of lies. Farage sidesteps the Tory party imbroglio, isn't bothered about the mess but curses yet again that he is not an MP - they didnt like him in Thanet.
7. Tory party collapses under exactly same pressures as it has had since 1975 and maybe earlier. The century-long collapse of the age of deference has taken its last victim

MrsGrey

I think your scenario has missed out the power of the 4th Estate.

MrsGrey

And Labour back-stabbing.

MrsGrey

Slaven_A_Laugh_Lukerz said:

Couldn't believe the comments about "let's take our time" when you've just campaigned that you no longer need the EU. Like me handing in my notice and moaning about how terrible my employer is, then saying but I want a few months to sort out another job and my housing situation.
.

Actually, it's more like you slagging off your employer, announcing you are going to resign, but not handing in your notice. When any forward planning is going on at work, you shrug and say you'll have left by then. But still don't hand in your notice. But continue to complain about your job, working conditions, management and co-workers. But still don't resign.

Whoever drafted the Lisbon treat missed a trick. There should have been a 'sacking' clause in there as well. ;lol

thornburyiron

The way people are wanting it rerun because they didn't get the result they wanted, I want all west hams losses last season replayed.

ASLEFshrugged

One possible reason for the low "18-24" turnout is that in 2014 the government introduced individual voter registration, as a result many young people, especially those away from home at university/college are not registered to vote. Had Cameron not introduced the legislation the result might have been rather different,

"For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6.7

Well, it is a Sunday........

SuzanneClaret

Still that's a poor excuse.

Term has finished, most university students have gone home. Those that have not could have voted by post.

You couldn't move at my place for 'make sure you vote' posters.

The student union was very active in this regard.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

There was no mention that all £350 million would go to the NHS so where that came from I don't know.

Possibly from the Brexit campaign bus?



or from the official vote leave campaign slogans?

Lukerz

It's simply £350m that they can wrongly prioritise and wrongly invest that they didn't have before.

IronHerb

Oh! That £350m...... ;doh

SuzanneClaret

;lol

ASLEFshrugged

Suze - if you're not registered to vote then you can't vote by post or any other way and the last estimate I saw was that 30% of 18-24yos weren't registered compared to 16% of all ages.

I'm ashamed to admit it but I didn't vote in the GLA/Mayoral elections as apparently the form I sent back last October never arrived, I had re-register (and I've lived at the same address since 1991).