The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

PrestonHammer

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Grey. This is why I said in an earlier post I hate the expression "take back control". It`s a slogan, a catchphrase, and like so many slogans can be picked apart, and on its own is pretty meaningless. For me the idea of a common market is a sensible and noble idea. This is what we signed up for. Individual nation states that happen to share a continent with common economic goals. At the time this made each individual country stronger from a trading perspective. How the EU grew and evolved from there I personally have found unacceptable. The layers of government and bureaucracy and the costs involved are totally unnecessary and totally unpalatable given the original remit. There was/is no need for what Europe has become and the waste of money just to run the thing I find distasteful to say the least. There are decisions and policies formulated in Europe that have nothing to do with its original goals and I think that is where it has all gone wrong. This has been happening for years, this constant drip drip drip of extended and enhanced Euro powers has been getting under peoples skin, and finally given the chance people have said enough. Put it this way, everyone I spoke to that voted out would have had no problem voting in if the EU had stuck to its original remit. In fact we wouldn`t even be discussing a referendum. We haven`t got it wrong by voting out, Europe has got it wrong by assuming we wanted in whatever it did. Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

This is why I voted out.

ASLEFshrugged

OutcastLondoner said:

Acting as if older people don't care about future generations is ridiculous even if I don't agree with their decision.

Old Mother shrugged - 86yo - voted Remain. The ex-Mrs shrugged parents didn't because they retired to France so didn't get a vote. Now they are now bricking themselves over whether they will still be able to get their free medical treatment, whether they can afford private if they can't or whether they are going to have to sell up and come back to the UK (because the NHS can easily handle more elderly people needing care).

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

Human rights is nothing to do with the EU, the UK was the main driving force behind the European Convention on Human Rights and was the first country to ratify it in 1951. We had those Human Rights before we joined the Common Market in 1973 and all the Human Rights Act 1998 did was make them part of English (and Welsh) Law so that our courts could pass down judgements on them rather than having to refer cases to Strasbourg.

Even if the UK leaves the EU or revoke the Human Rights Act we will still be subject to the ECHR, human rights won't just disappear.

MrsGrey

outcast, am I misreading your post? Your image shows the 'elderly' did vote?

(Not that I am blaming them, I just see a contradiction between your comment + the turnout stats ;hmm )

Expat_Hammer

Mrs G, I think the point Outcast is raising is that us old gribs DID vote and that the yoof were quite absent from the polling stations ;ok

I think ;hmm

Hamstew

That's how I read it. He's saying a low % of youth voted. If more voted it could have easily swung the other way? ;hmm

MrsGrey

I get ya ;ok

Lukerz

Pretty sure the Glastonbury festival didn't help with the number of young people voting.

OutcastLondoner

Yes my point is about the youth turnout. I dislike blaming the voters when I feel the problems are deeper than that and stem from media/political rhetoric.

I don't think it's fair that some people are accusing the older vote for stealing their future when clearly they didn't claim their future themselves. I think it a larger number of youth had voted the same way the gap between Remain and Leave closes.

SuzanneClaret

That's democracy.

We were given a choice.

We chose.

My team lost.

That's democracy.

Swissiron

Primrose Path
1. Cameron blurts out to TV journalist that the next election is his last. He's desperate to win, so kicks off a prolonged leadership context within the Tory Party for the next 5 years for the sake of avoiding internal criticism in the ead up to the election. Cameron wins, Tory leadership contest starts
2. Bojo, Theresa, Gove et al attend to their images and start preening and muttering
3. Bojo enters the Leave campaign after deciding that this fits for his ambition to be Tory leader. He thinks the Reffo will be won by Remain anyway, and that he will emerge as a dignified leader of the right wing in the party and get a top job.
4. Bojo and Gove, both journalists, stay high profile, enjoy it and keep lying. Farage does his own thing in UKIP areas. Bojo goes everywhere, widens his campaign to make sure he always gets national coverage, and is encouraged to see that polls, bookies and the City still predict a win for Remain, even at the last.
5. Leave wins, Bojo and Gove and other Leave Tories are frightened by the implication of the results, overnight they all together say it's Cameron's "duty" to remain as leader.
6. Cameron immediately resigns in a hurried and muddled speech, but it does make Big Bojo and Little Gove the men who get the blame for the mess which includes a divided England and Wales, Scottish referendum and break up of the UK, new Welsh nationalism, the return of the border and maybe more in Northern Ireland, lasting enmity with European allies esp France and Germany, prob loss of Gibraltar, praise from Trump, slow-breaking recession and social unrest throughout Britain, realisation by a sorry English public that the campaign was based on a pack of lies. Farage sidesteps the Tory party imbroglio, isn't bothered about the mess but curses yet again that he is not an MP - they didnt like him in Thanet.
7. Tory party collapses under exactly same pressures as it has had since 1975 and maybe earlier. The century-long collapse of the age of deference has taken its last victim

MrsGrey

I think your scenario has missed out the power of the 4th Estate.

MrsGrey

And Labour back-stabbing.

MrsGrey

Slaven_A_Laugh_Lukerz said:

Couldn't believe the comments about "let's take our time" when you've just campaigned that you no longer need the EU. Like me handing in my notice and moaning about how terrible my employer is, then saying but I want a few months to sort out another job and my housing situation.
.

Actually, it's more like you slagging off your employer, announcing you are going to resign, but not handing in your notice. When any forward planning is going on at work, you shrug and say you'll have left by then. But still don't hand in your notice. But continue to complain about your job, working conditions, management and co-workers. But still don't resign.

Whoever drafted the Lisbon treat missed a trick. There should have been a 'sacking' clause in there as well. ;lol

thornburyiron

The way people are wanting it rerun because they didn't get the result they wanted, I want all west hams losses last season replayed.

ASLEFshrugged

One possible reason for the low "18-24" turnout is that in 2014 the government introduced individual voter registration, as a result many young people, especially those away from home at university/college are not registered to vote. Had Cameron not introduced the legislation the result might have been rather different,

"For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6.7

Well, it is a Sunday........

SuzanneClaret

Still that's a poor excuse.

Term has finished, most university students have gone home. Those that have not could have voted by post.

You couldn't move at my place for 'make sure you vote' posters.

The student union was very active in this regard.

MrsGrey

AdMeus_CaputFilius said:

There was no mention that all £350 million would go to the NHS so where that came from I don't know.

Possibly from the Brexit campaign bus?



or from the official vote leave campaign slogans?

Lukerz

It's simply £350m that they can wrongly prioritise and wrongly invest that they didn't have before.

IronHerb

Oh! That £350m...... ;doh

SuzanneClaret

;lol

ASLEFshrugged

Suze - if you're not registered to vote then you can't vote by post or any other way and the last estimate I saw was that 30% of 18-24yos weren't registered compared to 16% of all ages.

I'm ashamed to admit it but I didn't vote in the GLA/Mayoral elections as apparently the form I sent back last October never arrived, I had re-register (and I've lived at the same address since 1991).

SuzanneClaret

I know that, not being able to vote if you're not registered.

I'm saying they had plenty of opportunity to get their voting ducks in a row.

Maybe they didn't want to.

Dodger58

The battle bus does not say re-invest the £350 per week in the NHS, whereas the poster does. Having said that, I don't think anyone has been even close to saying we would provide an additional £18.2 Billion a year for the NHS - i.e. £350M x52 and I certainly don't believe anyone was really expecting that to happen.

The numbers debate during the referendum campaigns have been appalling by both sides. Let's just keep calm, and see what happens.

The question was not, and never should have been, a party political one. As has been written the ONLY (main) party backing Brexit was UKIP. So the Government didn't lose (although their official line was backing remain), the establishment did.

One of the main criticisms I have of the remain campaign was the number of times Brexiters were asked what they would do with economy/EU cash as if they would be forming a new Government. This was never the case as the Government will not change until the next General Election, even if there is a re-shuffle of the players.

Now the vote has been cast, the Government are being asked many questions before they have had a chance to consider the right approach, remember as I say above, the official Government position was Remain. Patience is required. There is a period of time available to consider and we should take it. The EU don't like it, but it's their rule and I don't remember them being helpful when Cameron was trying to negotiate reform - they were dragging their heels - you reap what you sow!

If the press could stop denigrating our country and actually try to report things accurately as opposed to the huge bias on display for the last couple of months, we might see less hysteria and less divide.

IronHerb

But this is not 3 months considering the right approach is it? Its 3 months electing a new Tory leader/PM who will then have to consider the approach.

OutcastLondoner

Aslef, it was pretty easy to register. Just needed your NI number and internet connection I think.

Also, isn't the turnout % of eligible voters?

Dodger58

The point is the same, there is no need to rush headlong without taking time to consider ...

Personally I think Cameron should have continued, pulled together the Government's Negotiating team with people from all parties and all sides and got on with it. In principal he still could in parallel to the Tory Leadership, but I don't see that happening.

The aside to this is the EU wants to get on with it partly due to their own concerns about national elections next year in France & Germany; and partly, in my view, so they can be seen to be tough on the UK. A little breathing space and time to reflect will actually be good for all, IMO.

Vorselaarhammer

ASLEFshrugged

OutcastLondoner said:

Aslef, it was pretty easy to register. Just needed your NI number and internet connection I think.

Also, isn't the turnout % of eligible voters?

The thing was I thought I was registered, I'd sent back the form they sent last year and it was only when I walked into the Polling Station on 5 May that I found out that I wasn't on the electoral register. When I got home I registered online, I got an email back saying that the local council would contact me but in the end I had to get in touch with them to get confirmation I was on the register again.

Good question on the %, probably, I haven't see the exact figures

MrsGrey

Aslef, same thing happened to grey. They lost/messed up his first registration and he only found out after he got an automatic email reminder to register.

It took several phone calls and re-sending of forms before they got it right.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Slaven_A_Laugh_Lukerz said:

Pretty sure the Glastonbury festival didn't help with the number of young people voting.

Also those polling stations were only open until 10pm, plenty had only just got UP, but unfair

;whistle