The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

TheMadcapLaughs

;wave ;champagne

Mrs G. The person who voted out because they want to use imperial weights and measures has just as valid a reason to cast their vote out as Mr Hedgefund Manager from Westminster who chose to vote in. I. E. Personal, vested, interest. Neither voted for the greater good of the UK. It is no surprise to me that that those to lose most SHORT TERM, the ruling elite, stock market traders, bankers, hedge fund managers and the rest of the "cosy club" centered around London and the home counties voted to remain whilst most of the rest of the country voted overwhelmingly out. I think for a long, long time a lot of people in the UK have felt disenfranchised, this vote gave them a simple choice to basically stick two fingers up at what they were told was "best for them" and choose the alternate path. The people who stand to lose the most SHORT TERM are not thinking about Britains LONG TERM interests but, what they stand to lose NOW. This is not just in the UK but the World over. The fat cats are in a panic, ordinary people have had the temerity to go against the grain, and World markets, both stock and currency, are in temporary meltdown. Basically, the rich are cashing in their chips, oh, and by the way still doing rather nicely. This will be a short term phenomenon.
I personally have a lot to lose from this supposed "gamble" as I run my own small business and am about to move house and double my mortgage in the process. I still voted out, not because I am thinking of short term volatility, but because I think in the long run Britain will prosper, free of the EU`s shackles. My kids are coming up 14 and 16, I have voted for them, not me. Yeold: You claim that your generations future has been ruined and that your prospects going forward are rubbish, but fail to back this up with any meaningful analysis. I can tell you one thing, with that attitude you may not be far wrong though. And believe me that is not a personal dig, as there seems to be a general consensus amongst the Remainers that economic doom and gloom and the end of Western Civilization is a foregone conclusion. What they fail to remember is that the deepest, longest, most painful recession occurred whilst we were members of the EU, and the consequences are still being felt.
It seems to me that a lot of Remainers have categorized Outers as old, thick, racist Little Englanders. Funny, but most of the Outers I have spoken to are looking forwards and outwards with renewed enthusiasm and excitement. I think it has been patently obvious for a long time that the EU simply isn`t working and the only people who benefit directly from the EU are the tens of thousands "employed" by the EU.
So Nicola Sturgeon`s lot have now lost two votes, and the "Elite" in London may lose a few quid short term. So what do we hear, Scotland calling for a second referendum and London wants to declare itself an independent sovereign state. Jesus wept. Bloomping inconvenient this democracy lark. Instead of ridiculous posturing and mudslinging surely now is the time to accept the the result and start working towards a brighter future. Surely this must be seen as an opportunity to change things in a positive way, and as much as I hate this expression, lets take back control, because as things stood more and more of our individuality and critical decision making was being ceded the way of Brussels and the nameless, faceless men in grey.
I`m not sure if this is a coincidence, but yesterday was the best day I have had in the shop for months. In fact with the proceeds I`m off this afternoon to order 260 square feet of laminate flooring and I may pick up a pound or two of fresh strawberries on the way back. ;champagne

baracks_a_hammer

Top top post mad cap ;ok

One of the headlines in the German press apparently went "Well done Little Brtitain"

Even if I had a shred of doubt as to whether voting out was the right thing to do (which I don't) a headline like that would have eliminated it completely for sure

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

if it's a time to stop mudslinging, why post stuff like:

It seems to me that a lot of Remainers have categorized Outers as old, thick, racist Little Englanders.

Given the extremely slim majority, it is hard to imagine that those who wanted to remain in the EU are suddenly going to come around to the idea of leaving as though it is a brave new dawn.

You got what you wanted, so you are clearly pleased, but don't expect me to share your enthusiasm, or your optimism.

MrsGrey

London wants to declare itself an independent sovereign state.

No. It really doesn't.

Yeoldhammer

My kids are coming up 14 and 16, I have voted for them, not me. Yeold: You claim that your generations future has been ruined and that your prospects going forward are rubbish, but fail to back this up with any meaningful analysis

-------------------

Analysis i'm guessing as usual we throw away the experts opinion as that of being "elitist" or "wanting to keep the gravy train going"

It quite simply isn't short term volatility we have a housing market going to explode, with an NHS going down the pan. Young people have already lost out in the last 10 years and will lose out in the next 10 years. Unless you can bank roll your kids for a few years they are going into a world or should i say (closed off fractured UK) where businesses will be looking to recoup their losses through moving out or job losses. If you think the Elite are going to be the ones that shunt the burden under a Tory government then zero point continuing the discussion.

We have already had Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan go back on their word. the 350m will not go to the NHS backed up by good old Nige. Dan Hannan also just confirmed that voting out will not cut immigration and envisages free movement of labour in return for a better economic deal. He complained that immigration wasn't down to 10s of thousands and now says even outside the EU that isn't possible.

People were deliberately sold a pipe dream and people brought it and within 2 days they have back tracked completely.

Btw the recession wasn't an EU phenomenon it was global, triggered in the USA. Being in or out the EU would have made zero difference as every country from China to Russia to the USA would tell you.

MrsGrey

Madcap,

the only people who benefit directly from the EU are the tens of thousands "employed" by the EU.

Tell that to the 2 million workers who, prior to 1988, had NO paid holiday entitlement at all but were given those rights because of an EU requirement.

Next time you are down in Devon or Cornwall on a family holiday, you might reflect on the lovely clean beaches. And on the fact that although there was nothing stopping the UK cleaning them up and improving water quality, they didn't bother much until they were forced to by the EU.

If you go abroad, you might be happy to find your mobile phone charges are no longer as high as they used to be. And if you phoned your family in Thessaloniki to organise your visit, your international calls are some 80% cheaper than they used to be, again as a result of EU intervention in telecommunications markets.

Women have benefited from EU legislation on equal pay for equal work, as well as pensions rights, where the UK government ignored or, in some cases, actively fought against these rights. I, for one, think that is a good thing. So the hundreds of thousand of people who benefited might disagree that

the only people who benefit directly from the EU are the tens of thousands "employed" by the EU.

I could go on, but I haven't time.


Personally speaking, I don't trust the (current) UK govt to to the right thing in this regard, and I expect them to shortly begin unpicking legislation that protects the environment.

baracks_a_hammer

Yeh, the "experts" are the ones who largely will have their own vested interests too - many from the city - doubtless on a cushy number which they didn't way disturbed.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yeold, you have painted a very dark picture of the past ten years, a picture I tend to agree with, young people have lost out over the past ten years (and longer). Fact, we know this as it has happened. Why leaving the EU is going to continue this trend for the next ten years is treated as fact and guaranteed is beyond me, surely by maintaining the status quo this is more likely to happen by your analysis.

thornburyiron

More employees had holiday rights in the uk than in other EU countries so I don't think the EU had uk interests at heart with that. I started work in 1963 with 2 weeks paid holiday rising to 4 with certain periods of service.
I'm sure a lot of people in other EU countries have a selfish attitude over our leaving because it would mean one less country to keep bailing them out because they can't run their own affairs.
The vote in England was greater than 52/48 and I'm certain, although I've not checked, that the majority of people in England are not over age 60.

Yeoldhammer

Leave campaigner Nigel Evans has denied immigration will fall after the UK voted to leave the EU. The Conservative MP said there had been some “misunderstanding” over the Leave campaign’s position on reducing immigration.


and there is another lol.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yeold, immigration was never and still is not an issue for me or the majority of outers I have spoken to. Mr G, I,`m not mudslinging, just stating an impression I got from watching various debates and following various forums. Mrs G. On workers rights you are preaching to the converted. I am as left as you can go (and then some) on the political scale. I saw a very interesting point on another forum and a question well worth thinking about. If we were currently not members of the EU and thursdays vote was to join or not to join, how would you have voted?? And finally, for now, I know that the recession was a global event (although some lay the blame firmly at Gordon Browns feet) I was simply pointing out the fact that global events will effect us whether we are in the EU or not.

MrsGrey

thornburyiron said:

More employees had holiday rights in the uk than in other EU countries so I don't think the EU had uk interests at heart with that. I started work in 1963 with 2 weeks paid holiday rising to 4 with certain periods of service.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

Your holiday entitlement is irrelevant, as are the EU motives (by which of course we mean the member states' elected representatives who voted the measure in).

My point is, Madcap said nobody benefited from membership directly apart from those on the gravy train.

I have given evidence of millions who did.

Lukerz

I hope those who voted leave didn't do so on the basis of immigration. That, IMO, was a massive red herring and the biggest, in the whole campaign. We now can wrestle some control, however to now expect immigration to decrease is naive IMO. I would bet a lot of money on the fact it won't.

However, I do accept there were some compelling reasons to vote leave other than the immigration topic and have no issue with anybody who voted leave, but for me it was ignited around the issues surrounding immigration and the way the leave campaign banged on about how it will now be capped was wrong and unrealistic.

The EU, like anything, had massive faults and compromises. But the overall benefit was deemed worth sticking with despite those negatives. I cannot bring myself to trust the politicians in this country to guide the UK through the next 10 years into a better future, especially given my experience to date. At least with the EU, you had several numpties making decisions. Now you will have a few.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yeold, one other thing. If experts were always right. Why do things go wrong?

Lukerz. The immigration thing was always a red herring, certain elements of the outers are indeed driven by the notion that the nations ills lay squarely at the feet of immigrants and votes would be easily won on this basis. As I say, for me and the vast majority of outers I have spoken to this was a non issue.

SuzanneClaret

steve said:

;hmm dont want to upset anyone so wont say how i feel ,okay i think it is a mistake to leave ,having said that i do have two spare bedrooms here in canada if anyone is interested .will except a small payment in us dollers or even canadian dollers but no pounds ;biggrin

This is good to know.

grey_til_I_dye

I boggle at the idea that this vote will allow the UK to 'take back control', and can only ask 'of what, from whom?'

The UK has its own currency, and sets its own interest rates.

It will now have to re-negotiate trade agreements (that currently exist) with the EU. Do people seriously believe the UK will be doing this from a position of strength?

Now instead of being dictated to by the EU we will be able to negotiate, and then be dictated to by the EU.

Separately, the UK will need to negotiate individual trade deals with countries outside the EU.

Can you see those countries tripping over themselves to give the UK a better deal than they had within the EU?

Will the UK be able to control global markets? Fair play if it can, but I can't see it somehow.

And who will wield this control?

A government (of whatever shade) that has been chosen by some 1/3 of the electorate - leaving 2/3 of the electorate unrepresented at any one time.

And people complained about unelected EU bureaucrats...

Now that the bogeyman of Brussels has been dismissed, will people start to seriously work to allow the electorate to take control over who represents them?

Or will they continue to believe that as long as they are allowed to vote, they are being given access to democracy?

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G. All valid points with end results I personally support. ;ok

TheMadcapLaughs

Blimey, not checked the markets this morning, but how`s the pound doing. I have people queuing up outside with wheelbarrows full of sterling. I have people asking if they can buy 60 and 100watt bulbs while they are still available, crikey, just sold a 100watt bulb for £400. No madam, I WILL NOT accept IOU`s. ;wahoo

grey_til_I_dye

About £7 per £100 worse than Wednesday.

Or, in personal terms, about €20 a week worse off than Wednesday.

MrsGrey

That's my hat budget slashed. ;weep

grey_til_I_dye

Yeah, but on the bright side, you'll be able to freely choose the hat you can no longer afford, rather than be dictated to by Eurohats...

ASLEFshrugged

thornburyiron said:

More employees had holiday rights in the uk than in other EU countries so I don't think the EU had uk interests at heart with that. I started work in 1963 with 2 weeks paid holiday rising to 4 with certain periods of service.

Under the EU Working Time Regulations adopted in 1998 UK workers are entitled to 28 days statutory leave which may or may not include bank holidays (if not then bank holidays are usually unpaid), prior to that we had the Holidays with Pay Act 1938 which gave workers a minimum of one week off.

In France full time workers get a minimum 25 days leave AND 11 paid national holidays for a total of 36 paid days off, Germany 20 and 9, Italy 20 and 12.

Surprisingly the country that give the most paid days off is Iran with 26 days and 26 national holidays (although you can't go down the pub to celebrate). There is no statutory leave in the USA and national holidays do not have to be paid; so much for the Land of the Free.........

MrsGrey

ASLEFshrugged said:

prior to that we had the Holidays with Pay Act 1938 which gave workers a minimum of one week off.

but only applied to some workers ;ok

SuzanneClaret

TheMadcapLaughs

Grey. This is why I said in an earlier post I hate the expression "take back control". It`s a slogan, a catchphrase, and like so many slogans can be picked apart, and on its own is pretty meaningless. For me the idea of a common market is a sensible and noble idea. This is what we signed up for. Individual nation states that happen to share a continent with common economic goals. At the time this made each individual country stronger from a trading perspective. How the EU grew and evolved from there I personally have found unacceptable. The layers of government and bureaucracy and the costs involved are totally unnecessary and totally unpalatable given the original remit. There was/is no need for what Europe has become and the waste of money just to run the thing I find distasteful to say the least. There are decisions and policies formulated in Europe that have nothing to do with its original goals and I think that is where it has all gone wrong. This has been happening for years, this constant drip drip drip of extended and enhanced Euro powers has been getting under peoples skin, and finally given the chance people have said enough. Put it this way, everyone I spoke to that voted out would have had no problem voting in if the EU had stuck to its original remit. In fact we wouldn`t even be discussing a referendum. We haven`t got it wrong by voting out, Europe has got it wrong by assuming we wanted in whatever it did. Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

baracks_a_hammer

I'd like to know if the sports direct warehouse workers feel they have been well protected by the employee laws set up under the EU

MrsGrey

The employer broke the law.

I don't think your example is a sound basis for criticising the EU.

They workers might wish, however, that they had rather more union protection. Remind me again who eroded the power of the unions?

IronHerb

baracks_a_hammer said:

I'd like to know if the sports direct warehouse workers feel they have been well protected by the employee laws set up under the EU

The laws were there but not followed by Sports Direct. The same laws if passed by our own Parliament would still have been ignored.

Can't pin bad employment practise on the EU in this case.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

IronHerb said:

There's always money to be made out of a crisis, especially in Canada it seems ;lol

Sorry, only just saw this.............

was out building a WALL

Colchester_Iron

TBF Mrs G, the unions did wonders for this country but, became too powerful and, in the end, brought the country to it's knees.