The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

TheMadcapLaughs

Grey. This is why I said in an earlier post I hate the expression "take back control". It`s a slogan, a catchphrase, and like so many slogans can be picked apart, and on its own is pretty meaningless. For me the idea of a common market is a sensible and noble idea. This is what we signed up for. Individual nation states that happen to share a continent with common economic goals. At the time this made each individual country stronger from a trading perspective. How the EU grew and evolved from there I personally have found unacceptable. The layers of government and bureaucracy and the costs involved are totally unnecessary and totally unpalatable given the original remit. There was/is no need for what Europe has become and the waste of money just to run the thing I find distasteful to say the least. There are decisions and policies formulated in Europe that have nothing to do with its original goals and I think that is where it has all gone wrong. This has been happening for years, this constant drip drip drip of extended and enhanced Euro powers has been getting under peoples skin, and finally given the chance people have said enough. Put it this way, everyone I spoke to that voted out would have had no problem voting in if the EU had stuck to its original remit. In fact we wouldn`t even be discussing a referendum. We haven`t got it wrong by voting out, Europe has got it wrong by assuming we wanted in whatever it did. Mrs G has pointed to a few success stories, if you invent a thousand rules and regulations some will be right, however, whose to say that these improvements in both human rights and environmental issues wouldn`t have happened irrespective of the EU by way of natural progression. We may have brought in similar laws, or maybe even better laws, we will never know. But at least they would have been our laws. Pushed through our parliament. There have been one or two pass through over the centuries. This is what people want (and not just in Britain). This is what I think of as "taking back control".

baracks_a_hammer

I'd like to know if the sports direct warehouse workers feel they have been well protected by the employee laws set up under the EU

MrsGrey

The employer broke the law.

I don't think your example is a sound basis for criticising the EU.

They workers might wish, however, that they had rather more union protection. Remind me again who eroded the power of the unions?

IronHerb

baracks_a_hammer said:

I'd like to know if the sports direct warehouse workers feel they have been well protected by the employee laws set up under the EU

The laws were there but not followed by Sports Direct. The same laws if passed by our own Parliament would still have been ignored.

Can't pin bad employment practise on the EU in this case.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

IronHerb said:

There's always money to be made out of a crisis, especially in Canada it seems ;lol

Sorry, only just saw this.............

was out building a WALL

Colchester_Iron

TBF Mrs G, the unions did wonders for this country but, became too powerful and, in the end, brought the country to it's knees.

MrsGrey

In your opinion.

Not mine ;ok

(edit - referring to the 'too powerful' bit, I mean)

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

TheMadcapLaughs said:

;wave ;champagne

Mrs G. The person who voted out because they want to use imperial weights and measures has just as valid a reason to cast their vote out as Mr Hedgefund Manager from Westminster who chose to vote in. I. E. Personal, vested, interest. Neither voted for the greater good of the UK. It is no surprise to me that that those to lose most SHORT TERM, the ruling elite, stock market traders, bankers, hedge fund managers and the rest of the "cosy club" centered around London and the home counties voted to remain whilst most of the rest of the country voted overwhelmingly out. I think for a long, long time a lot of people in the UK have felt disenfranchised, this vote gave them a simple choice to basically stick two fingers up at what they were told was "best for them" and choose the alternate path. The people who stand to lose the most SHORT TERM are not thinking about Britains LONG TERM interests but, what they stand to lose NOW. This is not just in the UK but the World over. The fat cats are in a panic, ordinary people have had the temerity to go against the grain, and World markets, both stock and currency, are in temporary meltdown. Basically, the rich are cashing in their chips, oh, and by the way still doing rather nicely. This will be a short term phenomenon.
I personally have a lot to lose from this supposed "gamble" as I run my own small business and am about to move house and double my mortgage in the process. I still voted out, not because I am thinking of short term volatility, but because I think in the long run Britain will prosper, free of the EU`s shackles. My kids are coming up 14 and 16, I have voted for them, not me. Yeold: You claim that your generations future has been ruined and that your prospects going forward are rubbish, but fail to back this up with any meaningful analysis. I can tell you one thing, with that attitude you may not be far wrong though. And believe me that is not a personal dig, as there seems to be a general consensus amongst the Remainers that economic doom and gloom and the end of Western Civilization is a foregone conclusion. What they fail to remember is that the deepest, longest, most painful recession occurred whilst we were members of the EU, and the consequences are still being felt.
It seems to me that a lot of Remainers have categorized Outers as old, thick, racist Little Englanders. Funny, but most of the Outers I have spoken to are looking forwards and outwards with renewed enthusiasm and excitement. I think it has been patently obvious for a long time that the EU simply isn`t working and the only people who benefit directly from the EU are the tens of thousands "employed" by the EU.
So Nicola Sturgeon`s lot have now lost two votes, and the "Elite" in London may lose a few quid short term. So what do we hear, Scotland calling for a second referendum and London wants to declare itself an independent sovereign state. Jesus wept. Bloomping inconvenient this democracy lark. Instead of ridiculous posturing and mudslinging surely now is the time to accept the the result and start working towards a brighter future. Surely this must be seen as an opportunity to change things in a positive way, and as much as I hate this expression, lets take back control, because as things stood more and more of our individuality and critical decision making was being ceded the way of Brussels and the nameless, faceless men in grey.
I`m not sure if this is a coincidence, but yesterday was the best day I have had in the shop for months. In fact with the proceeds I`m off this afternoon to order 260 square feet of laminate flooring and I may pick up a pound or two of fresh strawberries on the way back. ;champagne

I have no idea at what point the Agree / CMU database counter thingy max's out, if it's two digits then just put "99" and against both now and be done with it.

Top, top post, triffic.

;clap

Colchester_Iron

My father used to work at Ford's plant in Basildon.

He tells me that the some of the reasons that the whole plant used to walk out were embarrassing.

I remember he used to go to work and be at home an hour later because the wrong person had picked up a tool (or some similar reason). The next day he couldn't go to work if he wanted to because there would be a picket line.

For me, that is a union wielding too much power.

Over time, Ford moved more and more production overseas because the production line spent half the time at a standstill.

As I said, the trade unions achieved much good but in the 70s they seemed to lose the plot a little.

I respect that this is not in your opinion.

IronHerb

You can find extremes to cater for everything but it's in the smaller detail where unions come into their own to help the individual as well as the group.

SuzanneClaret

MrsGrey said:

The employer broke the law.

I don't think your example is a sound basis for criticising the EU.

They workers might wish, however, that they had rather more union protection. Remind me again who eroded the power of the unions?

Thatcher.

baracks_a_hammer

yeh well her predecessor James Callaghan didn't exactly do a stellar job when it came to the unions?

baracks_a_hammer

So I've just read that a million have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum?

Hilarious.

So democracy is absolutely the way to go, unless of course the result doesn't go your way?

IronHerb

That's their democratic right though surely

MrsGrey

I don't think there will be, or should be, a 2nd referendum. I don't even think there should have been a 1st one.

However, if I were playing devils advocate, I could say

democracy is absolutely the way to go, unless of course you are worried you might lose. ;biggrin ;wink

ASLEFshrugged

The industrial strife in the 70s was down to rampant inflation which was caused by the oil embargo following the Arab-Israeli war of 1973 but obviouly that doesn't fit with the authorised version as laid down the Daily Mail etc that the unions destroyed the country

simonc

baracks_a_hammer said:

So I've just read that a million have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum?

Hilarious.

So democracy is absolutely the way to go, unless of course the result doesn't go your way?

I think the # required is around 17,000,000

As for unions dont get me started, joined at 16 left within 6 months when they asked me to break my apprenticeship agreement and take days off in support of the engineers strike for a 39 hour week. The company i worked for was a family business and could not afford the disruption, they had already agreed to 39 hours. Needless to say union members supported the car plants demands, i am sure the car workers would have supported us in similar circumstances- NOT

madridhammer

ironmike44 said:

Madrid - as somebody who lives in Spain, are you equally furious at the EU's inability to tackle the very high level of youth unemployment in that country? Many of them with degrees can't even get a job serving coffee in Starbucks - unlike our own graduates, many of whom have been able able to secure such exulted positions as a result of the benign intervention of the EU.
They will of course, all shortly lose their livelihoods and futures, as a result of us oldies have have the temerity to express our view, having experienced the full 40 years of EU mismanagement, in a referendum. Shame on us, we really ought to shuffle off to our rooms in the care home, and stay out of important issues which, unless we have a degree, we clearly are not qualified or entitled to meddle in.

Iron Mike.
Re your first point,yes I am.
I accept that the older generation has a right to express it's view but I don't think it's fair that 16 & 17 year olds have no say in their future & someone of say 85 years has.By the way I'm 51.

ASLEFshrugged

BTW if anyone wants a good easily readable history of the last century I can thoroughly recommend Andrew Marr's two 'Modern Britain' books

Moojor

I honestly don't see how people think Britain will be able to negotiate better trade terms on our own compared to having the whole EU as you bargaining group.
If you were a new company that wants easy trade with Europe you are not going to be making your hq in England.
The EU is right now sorting out a specialist trade agreement with USA and China. We will not be able to get a better deal.
The EU countries won't give us a good deal because that would strengthen the argument for others to leave. They will want to make things as hard as possible for us, because that's their best bet to keep it all together. They will point at us as the example of what happens when go rogue.
Boris and Co seem to believe that they have got all the time in the world to do informal chats about the exit but the EU want us out now. There isn't going to be a honeymoon period to pre-sort stuff

Lukerz

Couldn't believe the comments about "let's take our time" when you've just campaigned that you no longer need the EU. Like me handing in my notice and moaning about how terrible my employer is, then saying but I want a few months to sort out another job and my housing situation.

Get out asap. That's what you wanted. As has been seen already by the reaction from other EU countries, this is going to get petty and turn into a grudge match. That will in no way help the UK negotiate with other EU countries, especially when time isn't on our side.

MrsGrey

I see there are calls in France to renegotiate the Le Touquet agreement, now that the UK wants a divorce.

(The agreement was made with France, and effectively places the UK border on that side of the channel. Without it, the UK can't carry out immigration checks on refugees/migrants etc in France, but would have to wait until the people arrived in the UK.)

You can kind of see their point: you want your borders back? Here you go. Have this one ;ok

billybondsbeard

Whoever the new Tory prime minister is, I don't believe that they will have a mandate to negotiate the details of article 20 on our behalf - its not in any referendum manifesto that I can see. So there will need to be a general election I think, with our exit from the EU as a central issue. The EU wont be putting up with the time that could take, and will want to move forwards. I cant believe that the Brexit mob haven't got the wheels in motion, or their post EU Lisbon Treaty demands sorted out.

This all came about due to Cameron's cowardice in calling the referendum due to back bench pressure and a fear of UKIP. It was all about his own political survival.

We live in a so called Parliamentary Democracy, where we elect MP's to legislate on our behalf. We don't generally make/change the rules by Plebiscite as we have done here.
There are certain things that cannot be risked by giving it to a popular vote. Waging war/Hanging etc

Its a mess, and it will bite us on the backside long term. How long will Nissan etc remain an manufacturer and exporter from this country I wonder...

Moojor

But in all honesty that would probably just cause even more issues for France. If people thought it was going to be easy to get in to Britain they would flock to France in even greater numbers than there are now.

Britain would have no requirement to help police it or provide any support what so ever on the French side and could just work on ensuring it was as hard as possible for people to actually get across illegally.

In the end it would cause an even greater humanitarian issue would erupt in France and possibly across the EU as migrants attempt to cross to get easy access to the UK.

So for all their bluster they aren't going to want to do anything which makes people think it's a good idea to come flooding in to France in huge numbers.

grey_til_I_dye

Moojor

Unless, of course, they are happy to let them flow through their borders into the UK...

MrsGrey

Once they get started (post Article 50) they only have 2 years to sort it all out.

If it isn't done by then, the only way the period can be extended is if ALL the EU members agree to an extension.

Not sure what odds you'll get on that happening.


In the absence of an agreed extension, all international trade will become subject to WTO tariffs straight away.

As I'm not in the import/export business, I don't know how this will impact. But I imagine business cost will go up as a result of the new paperwork/changes to IT systems/staff retraining alone?

As for general legislation, anything in UK law, even if it was originally brought in to implement an EU directive, will stay on the statute book until it is repealed. There's a big job right there. A large number of Acts of Parliament and secondary legislation will need reviewing. Then it will need to be amended, repealed or replaced.

All the statutory guidance etc that confers powers and duties on local authorities (eg, planning and environmental stuff) will have to be reviewed.

Two years is nowhere near enough to do that AND to carry on with the other work of government.

Moojor

Flow through the tunnel? It's not like we are land locked for them to easily pass across.

MrsGrey

moojor, I think the point grey makes is what the French who have spoken out on this are implying.

Why should they care if a person has no proper visas etc necessary to enter the UK. That's the UKs problem (would seem to be the argument) to deal with when the person gets off the boat at Dover.

--
After all, if it wasn't an issue, why put in place the Le Touquet agreement in the first place/

Moojor

But just saying we won't check you, doesn't mean the same as you are going to just be able to walk across.

If all of a sudden a few hundred thousand people start turning up in French ports thinking its just a trip across the border to the UK then suddenly realising it isn't that will start to cause issues with more and more people being stuck.

Not to mention if you all of a sudden have massive movement of people across the country as a whole.
Migrants can't just teleport to the port. They would have to cross France, this again would cause even more issues

The treaty has nothing to do with the EU, it is bilateral between the UK and France. There is no real reason why this would not continue to do so, if anything maybe the UK not being in the EU would reduce the numbers because there is no longer the guarantee of getting anything when you get over here.

Personally, this is where I feel the remain campaign failed. So much focus on how bad everything could be if we leave, they didn't bother to actually highlight all the benefits we get from being in the EU.

simonc

MrsGrey said:

moojor, I think the point grey makes is what the French who have spoken out on this are implying.

Why should they care if a person has no proper visas etc necessary to enter the UK. That's the UKs problem (would seem to be the argument) to deal with when the person gets off the boat at Dover.

--
After all, if it wasn't an issue, why put in place the Le Touquet agreement in the first place/

Not so sure why this is an issue, you apply the same rules as they do on the airlines if the person is undocumented they are returned at the expense of the carrier