Moyes In or Moyes Out

Yeoldhammer

its not all his fault though, we have had an aging squad for a long long time and not really replaced them and when we have replaced them its to a player that is considerably worse than their previous hence going back to Antonio and Cresswell etc.

OutcastLondoner

Does anyone else feel like Antonio's playing style has changed again? He did all this stuff to try and protect his body last season but it feels like he's been using his strength and a bit more explosive again recently - and I think he's been one of our best players.

OldCastleSwift

He's definitely been more effective recently. There's a significant drop off when he isn't playing, but I'm not sure if that's down to him or the calibre/style of whoever replaces him.

What is evident though, is that we need to either find someone who is similar, or find a way of making Scamacca and Ings work. I'm not sure Moyes can do the latter, so if he stays and insists on playing his favoured 4-2-3-1, then he needs to find a '1' that can do what Antonio does, because Scamacca and Ings ain't it.

Or, alternatively, we bring in someone that might be able to get the best out of the other two (maybe even play them together).

OldCastleSwift

Yeoldhammer said:

its not all his fault though, we have had an aging squad for a long long time and not really replaced them and when we have replaced them its to a player that is considerably worse than their previous hence going back to Antonio and Cresswell etc.

Again this is another indictment of our business. Fabianski is 38, Cresswell is 33, Antonio is 33, Ogbonna is 34. These players have played more than they probably should because the players brought in to compete with them haven't been good enough.

MunichHammer

OldCastleSwift said:

Again this is another indictment of our business. Fabianski is 38, Cresswell is 33, Antonio is 33, Ogbonna is 34. These players have played more than they probably should because the players brought in to compete with them haven't been good enough.

I disagree here. Fabianski is still good, for a goalkeeper 38 is not all that old. Ogbonna has played more than he should, not neccessarily because his replacement is not as good but more because his replacements are injured.
The only one who plays more because we seem to lose something if he doesn't play is Antonio. But that is more down to style of play and the fact that he is built like a brick outhouse.
I think Scamacca will be better next season, once he is fit again.

buffybegood

I think yesterday's game really highlights the state our squad is in; on paper we've got good squad depth, but the majority of the players outside our usual starting 11 get so few minutes, even if they were capable of playing well, they've had the will or ability to do so sucked out of them. It strikes me as poor squad management, on top of which the quality of the players brought in by Moyes in recent windows (and let's not forget, Moyes insists he has final say on all transfers) simply isn't good enough.

It's true you shouldn't expect a great performance from throwing a load of players together who have barely featured, but part of a manager's job is to ensure those players are as ready as they can be to step in when required, and a number of players had anonymous games yesterday. Equally, one or two introduced into a settled team would be less exposed, but ultimately the buck has to stop with Moyes; the team fielded yesterday, on paper, should have been able to play a lot better than it did.

It wasn't Moyes's fault that the squad he inherited was the age it was, but he's been here nearly 3 and a half years this time around and so he's had a real chance to shape the squad we currently have. All squads age, but successful succession planning means you have younger players in place and coming through to naturally replace the older ones when age takes its toll.

Unfortunately Moyes was very quiet in the transfer market in the first few windows; Bowen, Randolph and Soucek arriving in the window that started a couple of days after he arrived (not sure how much impact he had there, and we were really in a relegation battle at the time) but after that we only signed Coufal, Benrahma, and Zouma that are still here over the course of the next 4 windows (Dawson, sold and Vlasic, on loan, were the only other permanent senior signings).

It's no wonder we needed a big influx of players in the summer, but of the 8 that came in, only Paqueta and Aguerd have really looked like they deserve to feature when we're free of injuries. Injuries to some of the newcomers hasn't helped their cases, particularly Cornet and Scamacca, but given Downes is the only relatively young player in the group (and he's 24), you would have hoped than the players coming in would at least be able to surplant the past-their-prime incumbants of various positions.

Unfortunately Fabianski still starts over Areola, Cresswell starts over Emerson, Coufal starts over Kehrer, Benrahma starts over Cornet (mitigated through injury), Antonio starts over Scamacca (end of season this would still be the case given how we're playing imo), Antonio starts of Ings (no brainer given how we play), Soucek starts over Downes. Doesn't say a lot for our recruitment since last season, does it?

I've not voiced an opinion on Moyes in or out so far, but I think yesterday shows that he's not taking us forward as a club. Yes, we're in danger of wining our first trophy in 43 years, and I'll be extremely happy with winning it, but let's not forget the standard of the opposition we've been playing against. I think, if we removed the top 6 clubs from the FA Cup each year there's much more of a chance of winning that than we've managed in the last 40 years.

However, our performance yesterday, which, imo, is partly a result of poor squad management and partly of poor recruitment, leads me to feel that Moyes isn't the man to be trusted with what should be a sizable transfer kitty to rebuild the club after Rice's inevitable departure. I'm afraid it's Moyes out for me.

Ironduke

What is the point of our academy if we dont promte the talented youth players to the senior squad. I wonder if there is an outside influence that forces the club to buy from abroad. . Mewuaba looks promising, as does Coventry and several others. We could develope them around Rice and build a strong home grown squad. Moyes seems to be more interested in foreign players, many of which dont bleed for the club. Yes, he has down well for us but his substitions beg many questions, the lone striker policy has been a disaster and appearing not to favour playing our youngsters more is disappointing. So I believe a new manager with a nnew outlook should be sought.

Slacker

Everyone sure we’ll have the Rice money to spend?🤷🏻‍♂️

Slacker

Tbh if I was Moyes I’d jack it in at the end of the season.
You’re 60 mate, you’ve done your time go and pick up some easy dollar in the media and go and sit on a beach for a couple of months.

Maybe that’s just me living up to my handle.

ASLEFshrugged

Moyes can only sign players that want to come here and we're no Man U, Man City, Liverpool or Real Madrid

Ironduke said:

What is the point of our academy if we dont promte the talented youth players to the senior squad.

They might be talented but are they talented enough to play at Premier League level?

Slacker said:

Tbh if I was Moyes I’d jack it in at the end of the season.
You’re 60 mate, you’ve done your time go and pick up some easy dollar in the media and go and sit on a beach for a couple of months.

Hodgson is 75, Bobby Robson and Sir Alex managed until they were 71, Wenger was 68 when he retired and BFS is 68.

Slacker

ASLEFshrugged said:

Moyes can only sign players that want to come here and we're no Man U, Man City, Liverpool or Real Madrid

Ironduke said:

What is the point of our academy if we dont promte the talented youth players to the senior squad.

They might be talented but are they talented enough to play at Premier League level?

Slacker said:

Tbh if I was Moyes I’d jack it in at the end of the season.
You’re 60 mate, you’ve done your time go and pick up some easy dollar in the media and go and sit on a beach for a couple of months.

Hodgson is 75, Bobby Robson and Sir Alex managed until they were 71, Wenger was 68 when he retired and BFS is 68.

And fair play to them.
My point was “do you really want to battle on, or do you fancy sitting under a palm tree with a nice cold beer?”

No brainier for me, but perhaps that’s just me.🤷🏻‍♂️

ASLEFshrugged

And as Moyes has said numerous times he has no interest in quitting West Ham

IronHerb

Ironduke said:

What is the point of our academy if we dont promte the talented youth players to the senior squad. I wonder if there is an outside influence that forces the club to buy from abroad. . Mewuaba looks promising, as does Coventry and several others. We could develope them around Rice and build a strong home grown squad. Moyes seems to be more interested in foreign players, many of which dont bleed for the club. Yes, he has down well for us but his substitions beg many questions, the lone striker policy has been a disaster and appearing not to favour playing our youngsters more is disappointing. So I believe a new manager with a nnew outlook should be sought.

The U21's were fighting relegation and survived by only losing the last game 1-0 and staying up on goal difference.
On the other hand the U18's are a talented group and are highly rated within the club. Mubama is one of the rated players and is still only eighteen and a half but a lot are still seventeen. A few more 'Pro' contracts than is usual are being handed out to these boys.

BubblesNeverDies

Don't think Mubama looked overawed yesterday and, but for another diabolical refereeing decision, would have got a partial assist. I'd like to see him get another run out.
(He also went to my old school, as did Defoe. )

Bazshuayi

Rice wont be going if someone doesn't match our valuation. I do wonder who will be desperate enough to try to get him now rather than wait a season+ for him when the price would be significaantly lower.

I hope and sort of believe Scamacca will be better next season. I also think, when Cornet is fit and by that I mean match fit and playing regularly, that he will add plenty of pace and dynamism to our attack.

We did bring in a lot of players last summer window but we needed to. I still think we'll need several more again.

IronHerb

I think Scamacca has already shown what he could be. He has skill and knows where the goal is. Just needs a run in the team and to stay fit. He is our best centre forward.

alderz

I agree with a lot of that, Herb, but I also think the style of play needs to evolve to bring the best out of him. He’s not going to run the channels, he’s not going to drive us up the pitch. He likes dropping off and playing others in or shooting from distance, and that means we need people running beyond him.

BubblesNeverDies

Alderz, took the words right out of my mouth, although just a little more eloquently.

Lukerz

Yeoldhammer said:

The problem is he spent the best part of 150m to push us to the next level or at least maintain us in the top echelons but instead he has put us in a relegation battle for the entire season.

Eddie Howe came in and transformed Newcastle
Unai Emery came in and transformed Aston Villa

I just think there are better managers than David Moyes who can get more out of the squad. I also think there are better managers who can identify players to play a specific system and not sign mismatched players.

The point is, Moyes did the same. And in two years the likes of Howe & Emery will be answering the same questions as Moyes is now.

Lukerz

Howe is hailed as a god, so is Emery, point is natural decline in football is inevitable. They will both be fuelling questions in a couple of years, I bet it’s sooner than it took for those questions to be asked of Moyes. I always remember the line in The Dark Knight, ‘you either die the hero, or you live long enough to become the villain’.

Yeoldhammer

Lukerz said:

Yeoldhammer said:

The problem is he spent the best part of 150m to push us to the next level or at least maintain us in the top echelons but instead he has put us in a relegation battle for the entire season.

Eddie Howe came in and transformed Newcastle
Unai Emery came in and transformed Aston Villa

I just think there are better managers than David Moyes who can get more out of the squad. I also think there are better managers who can identify players to play a specific system and not sign mismatched players.

The point is, Moyes did the same. And in two years the likes of Howe & Emery will be answering the same questions as Moyes is now.

We will see. But both of them play possession based football, even in Moyes 2 successful years he never played that kind of football. Playing possession based football is what keeps you at the top, its a reason why the top teams stay at the top. A counter-attacking team gets found out fast. Leicester / us / Wolves / Southampton have all felt that recently.

The difference between Emery + Howe and Moyes is that the former have both converted their squads to playing possession based football at the top end. Moyes utterly failed at that.

Even Brighton have worked out possession based football to compete up there. Its going to do a lot better as a foundation point to spring forward.

thornburyiron

Football is all about possession however you play football. You can’t score goals if you don’t have the ball but it’s all about what you do with it when you have it.
City are very much a so called “possession” based team and pass it backwards and sideways for about 10 minutes at a time going nowhere and then suddenly attack at real pace. Watch them live and see how quickly they get from one end to the other when they really want to. Difference with them to others is that they’re very clinical when they get there.

IronHerb

Football is all about scoring goals. Everton had 22% possession against Brighton yet won 5-1.

ASLEFshrugged

Howe proved he was a good manager at Bournemouth but now he has Saudi money behind him and has spent £263.5m in three windows

Emery is quality, he won the Europa League three times with Sevilla and once with Villarreal, managed PSG for two seasons. The fact that got Villa from 16th to 8th in 6 months with pretty much the same squad as they started the season with is more a indication of how bad Gerrard was

The question is would a better manager than Moyes actually want to come here and could they make a significant difference without a large transfer budget to buy the players they wanted?

Fortuneseeker

ASLEF, Depends on what you believe is a deemed a large transfer budget?

Slacker

Two certainties of life. Tax and “ he’s lost the dressing room”.

alderz

ASLEFshrugged said:

The question is would a better manager than Moyes actually want to come here and could they make a significant difference without a large transfer budget to buy the players they wanted?

I think that Emery going to Villa when they were in the lower reaches of the table, with no continental football looking likely, suggests that we could attract a ‘better’ manager if we wanted. Personally I don’t trust the board to do that.

IronHerb

alderz said:

ASLEFshrugged said:

The question is would a better manager than Moyes actually want to come here and could they make a significant difference without a large transfer budget to buy the players they wanted?

I think that Emery going to Villa when they were in the lower reaches of the table, with no continental football looking likely, suggests that we could attract a ‘better’ manager if we wanted. Personally I don’t trust the board to do that.

True but they do have a couple of billionaires backing them.

IronHerb

Slacker said:

Two certainties of life. Tax and “ he’s lost the dressing room”.

But that's not been said of Moyes, nor has it looked like it.

Slacker

Oh it has, and it’ll be said of every current manager at some point.
The mystery is how people actually know it.

Thinking about it there’s no mystery really, some bloke on Twitter will post it.