Couldn’t think.... part three

Fortuneseeker

Outcast, or long lost brothers!

steve

Now that would be funny ,To much of a love in here me thinks

OutcastLondoner

Fortuneseeker said:

Outcast, or long lost brothers!

Which one's the evil twin?

buffybegood

As much as it has its faults, and, tbh, it highlights faults in other rules of the game (in particular offside and handball) VAR is under the microscope again atm. Interesting though that Liverpool have had 5 goals ruled out by VAR so far this season. Is it any wonder that people complain about bias towards bigger clubs from on pitch referees? Without VAR they're have, wrongly, been 5 goals better off. Incidentally we're 3 goals better off with VAR, as 3 goals allowed by on pitch officials have been disallowed by VAR. Surprise, surprise, West Ham getting shafted by refs and linos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55160134

baracks_a_hammer

Just wondering, how come Orient ended up forfeiting their Carabao fixture v Spurs on account of Covid, and yet Newcastle get to postpone their game for the same reason?

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I might now be shifting towards wanting rid of VAR.

I was so for it, and have supported it for most of the time until now, believing it will get more efficient and we were just seeing teething problems.

But I am now missing just being able to celebrate a goal properly. It isn't reducing controversy, it isn't delivering more accurate results - it's just taking away the joy of a goal being scored.

I'd potentially keep it for things the referees miss (i.e. if somebody headbutts somebody off the ball), or mistaken identity (wrong player given a yellow card).

Whether something is or isn't a penalty isn't being helped by VAR, IMO. It's as controversial as before, if not more so. The referee/lino should judge in real time and that's it.

Maybe for very blatant offsides, but if you need the lines then the on-field decision stands. A part of me dies every time I watch those lines appear.

OutcastLondoner

baracks_a_hammer said:

Just wondering, how come Orient ended up forfeiting their Carabao fixture v Spurs on account of Covid, and yet Newcastle get to postpone their game for the same reason?

Maybe Premier League and Football League rules?


Jorderz, I saw something about one league, I think Dutch, using thicker lines. If those lines overlap in any way, they stick with the linesman's decision. I think it's a way of giving a margin for error that isn't subjective.

Tbh, I think it should mostly be done away with. It should not be heavily involved, unless there is a clear error on things like offsides, which I think was the most contentious issue beforehand and the easiest to judge if they don't stupidly obsess over marginal calls. There should be games where VAR isn't used. Or there might be occasions when the referee himself in unsure and can ask to view it.

How much does it cost? Wonder if that's part of it. Can't have an expensive system just sitting there...

baracks_a_hammer

I think about other sports where technology is involved. Rugby generally flows pretty well with technology in play. Yet when a try is scored and say there is a doubt/question about, say, forward pass, there are no lines on display at all. And no-one seems to grumble.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I think they’re committed to it because they’re mindful of just how long fans, players, managers and pundits spent asking for technology to be introduced. They know people have short memories, and they know people with allegiances to particular clubs will always complain about decisions that go against them.

Which was true before VAR and is true now. It’s just that with VAR, I feel like we’re losing something really important and not gaining all that much.

Pearces_Left_Foot

I agree nothing worse than a 3 minute wait for a VAR decision completely kills the atmosphere at a game

Dodger58

On VAR and offsides I think the issue is the rules rather than VAR. VAR will give you a factual decision that someone is 1mm offside (or whatever level of accuracy is agreed). The only real issue is what parts of the human form can be offside - to me it should be any part of the body that can 'score' a goal, now they just need to clarify where the arm starts and for Offside this should be the vertical line from the armpit.

Personally I am not unhappy with the very tight offsides as the player is either offside or not, there is no subjective point in VAR.

The other recent change that confuses the matter is that the assistant refs are told NOT to flag if it is tight. This makes the crowd/viewer believe it is onside even if the linesmen thought it might be offside. If we go back to pre-VAR days this would likely lead to linemen flagging incorrectly for offside and denying a goal or goal scoring opportunity - this would bring back the controversy and clamour for VAR - a vicious circle.

I think the authorities need to learn and act to improve, not remove Technology that can help ensure better decision making.

The one law Rugby really benefits from is the advantage law, there is one in football, but it is not applied long enough. Encourage fouled players to stay on their feet to attempt,pt to score and if they fail go back for the foul. In rugby this can be a long time, I have seen over 1 minute applied but this would be too long in football (imo). But 10 seconds, for example, would be appropriate.

BubblesNeverDies

baracks_a_hammer said:

I think about other sports where technology is involved. Rugby generally flows pretty well with technology in play. Yet when a try is scored and say there is a doubt/question about, say, forward pass, there are no lines on display at all. And no-one seems to grumble.

The other think that they do in rugby is alert the on-field ref of any incidents that he's missed but may be worth looking at e.g. deliberate obstruction, crossing, off the ball tackle.
VAR should also be used to alert an on-field ref that his initial decision deserves a second look.

baracks_a_hammer

One of the biggest things var could do very easily but doesn’t is address diving and cheating. For example Grealish writhing around holding the wrong leg. You start dishing out yellow and red cards by reviewing footage and you will very quickly see a change in behaviours.

alderz

It should just be an extra set of eyes to help out the ref. I can't help but feel that looking at things in slow-mo and with lines and whatever is making everything worse. Offsides should be paused at the moment of the ball touching, and if it looks offside it's off, if it doesn't it isn't, no drawing of lines. Handballs and penalty decisions should be played at real time speed, and the ref (or another ref acting as VAR) can just get another look at it to be certain.

I don't think we can remove it entirely and trust on field decisions, because refs and assistants bottle it so often against big teams - remember the Liverpool equaliser against us a couple of years back?

alderz

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55160134

Just read the article that someone (Luke?) shared earlier. I think one of the problems with the counting they use is that assistants don't flag anymore. So, yeah, sure, some goals have been overuled by VAR, but they would probably have been flagged if VAR hadn't been there. Assistants don't need to make a decision now, so they tend to leave it.

thornburyiron

I think the offside law should be changed so that if any part of the attacker’s leading foot is offside then it’s offside. Forget all the rubbish about any part of the body off which you can score

MrsGrey

well, that would change the way VAR assesses it, but you'd still get the 'moaning about a toenail' discussions though. So it's not really relevant to the VAR discussion, imo. (Maybe you didn't mean it to be :-) )

baracks_a_hammer

Maybe just remove remove the lines entirely from stockley parks view?

Then they need to have to call it with the naked eye (as the on field lines person would have had to do). And then correct any decision which seems obviously wrong (to the naked eye)

OutcastLondoner

I think people would still argue about what can be seen by the naked eye. The Dutch league thing of having thicker lines creates an accepted margin of errors - it’s basically the old idea of “benefit of doubt”

baracks_a_hammer

You want to be identifying and rectifying the obvious though surely? Like Liverpool’s goal against us at home in the 1-1 draw.

Aside from the karma achieved for all of villa’s diving, there is no way in the world Watkins’ goal should have been chalked off for offside

Dodger58

I disagree Baracks as to the naked eye his head looked to be offside - and you can score with your head!

OutcastLondoner

baracks_a_hammer said:

You want to be identifying and rectifying the obvious though surely? Like Liverpool’s goal against us at home in the 1-1 draw.

Aside from the karma achieved for all of villa’s diving, there is no way in the world Watkins’ goal should have been chalked off for offside

Yeah I agree...just think they might need to find a way that everyone agrees its obvious. A lot of fans see what they want. I assume the lines aren't just there to work it out but to SHOW how they worked it out.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I just think any review of offside will be result in millimetres, whatever part of the body you use or whatever thickness the lines are. There will always be calls where it is microscopic.

buffybegood

I've no problem with really tight offside decisions being made by the lines and VAR; it should ensure consistency and remove some of the bias of refs and linos the big clubs benefit from. Consistency, or lack of it, is one of my bug-bears, so for something that can be determined as either on or off, then I'm all for it. However, it does tend to make a mockery of the current offside rule (to include the top part of the arm as OK); given the way VAR can be so accurate, I believe it makes sense to use the part of the foot nearest the goal for all offside decisions to speed up the decision making.

ScotHammer

Why not forget about the Stockley Park official and just use the pitch side monitors?
Only if the ref isn’t sure he can chose to check himself. That way there will be less “stupid” offside goals like Villa’s on Monday, or Rice’s handball vs the Blunts last season, etc. The ref will only check if the three officials watching in real time are not sure, and he won’t have stupid lines or anything, just the naked eye. They will be in control as before and will again have to make decisions, rather than bottling it and going to Stockley Park every time.

Yes, there will be some human errors as before, but in time they may learn what to double check - ie. teams of moaners pressurising the officials for no reason, or certain divers, etc will soon be found out.
It would be better and quicker than the current VAR which is dehumanising our game. Which team hasn’t had a decision go for or against them? IMO, the ‘banter’ in the pubs and workplaces about these injustices or strokes of luck were all part of the football experience.

VAR is changing (killing) the game!

MrsGrey

There's a key point in what you say, imo. And it's ' teams of moaners pressurising the officials'. If the onfield officiating team have power to initiate a review you'll see so much more of that behaviour. I hate it and think it has decreased a lot since VAR was introduced.. if you keep video review but not ' remote referee' you risk just as much time being lost while the officials get the moaners calmed down and break up the scuffles between opposing players. They'll be dishing out yellow cards and it won't be long before we are thinking it would be better to have the decision to whether to review or not taken by a remote referee.
Imo, obvs.

ScotHammer

Maybe I am too black and white, but give people cards for something and they tend to learn and stop somewhat. Perhaps the short term pain of a bit of moaning may be worth it? I just don’t think the remote, inhuman system is working.

BubblesNeverDies

From KUMB, a whole thread on cheating with some very good points made, especially the ones comparing refereeing in rugby with the "refereeing" in football and how Kane will one day cause someone to have a life-threatening injury.


https://www.kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=179133&start=20

MIAHammer

This popped up on my phone as a memory from 6 years ago today

OutcastLondoner

Football should’ve just ended there.