The new manager hunt (was the Moyes thread) only 3 days to wait...

Moojor

BubblesNeverDies said:

Herb, they would just say nothing then, wouldn't they.

Did Noble just offer up his opinion or was he asked?

IronHerb

I guess all players either like or dislike their manager but only those who like their manager come out and say it.

BND - by your reckoning then we may have over 20 players who do not like Moyes?

Cuz1

Unless we have someone lined up then the board must surely know by now wether they want Moyes or not, so either say hello or wave goodbye it’s that simple for me tbh

BubblesNeverDies

Herb - by your reckoning the definition of a cat is: not a dog. (Courtesy of Baldrick ;wink)

OldCastleSwift

Cuz1 said:

Unless we have someone lined up then the board must surely know by now wether they want Moyes or not, so either say hello or wave goodbye it’s that simple for me tbh

Nice Soft Cell reference ;ok

alderz

I saw some really interesting data breakdowns of the season this morning from a twitter post.

First one shows the number of days spent in each position. We spent one day in the top half, all season.



Next is a squad age profile. It's sorted in oldest to youngers, and it shows the number of minutes played by age. What you see is that we had the 3rd oldest squad used, and that the distribution is fairly strongly weighted towards the upper 20s.



This shows shots taken vs shots faced. We are quite firmly in the 'quiet attack, busy defence' section.



Despite having a 'quiet attack', we are have an effective one. I love the term 'languidly clinical' and would definitely rather we were there than 'energetically wasteful'. This basically tells us that we don't shoot that much, but when we do we are likely to score.



On the negative side, we are extreme 'Pushovers' when it comes to defensive effectiveness. We concede a lot of shots, and it doesn't take many shots for the opposition to score.



Finally, the one I understand the least: expected goals. From what I gather, we are expected to concede a lot, and we are expected to score little.

ASLEFshrugged

I'm sure I've seen those "squad age profile" diagrams in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"

MarkNobleLocalHero

I have been a bit ;fence about this big decision but I now feel that it would be very risky not to go with Moyes in the absence of any star candidate lined up and I hope that isn't just the euphoria of survival and yesterday's great day speaking.
Moyes has;
Vastly improved the player's fitness levels.
He has got Arnie playing like the terminator, "I'll be back" ;clap (we could use an Arnie imogee btw).
He has largely got the defence sorted with the exception of the poor recent run. I believe he can get this fixed properly given the time and resources.
He has gotten Rice into the team as a regular (the coming Noble).
Oh, and he has ensured our continued premiere league presence ;bowdown

Give him another go. No more ;fence

Yeoldhammer

Graphs and pictures ;wahoo

MarkNobleLocalHero

One more thing, the owners won't be mucking him around. That might be why they won't go for him? I hope not.

IronHerb

I've seen two recent interviews with Moyes where he has been asked if he wants to stay and both times he failed to answer. ;hmm

SuzanneClaret

Leaving his options open should we not offer him a contract.

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I think he has a lot of pride and doesn't want to commit to staying somewhere he isn't wanted. I don't blame him, as he has done as good a job as could be expected, IMO, and probably wants a show of faith.

I also think he wants to keep his cards close to his chest for the negotiating table. He is going to want to stay on his terms, which will include the resources to be pushing the top 7/8 as he's mentioned a few times already.

Lukerz

The problem is the board are doing what they do best. They don't make decisive, long term decisions. How on earth do you expect to operate a successful business on almost a 'year by year' approach.

It resonates throughout the entire club. No decisive decision on the stadium, equals a stadium with several problems not currently 100% right for football. No decisive decision on the way they want the club to play, equals an unbalanced squad and several managers, 3 in the last 3 years. No decision on the playing personnel, equals an ageing squad of players lacking in depth. No decision on the 'director of football/recruitment, equals a sporadic transfer policy and owners influencing who we sign. No decision on the training grounds, equals a training pitch not fit for use and several coincidental long term injuries. And now, with Moyes. Short term deal, no news since survival on his future, which probably means they are looking around for a better option and if they don't get one fixed by the end of the week, Moyes will be offered the gig and retained should he accept it.

They just do not make big long term decisions. They say things, every now and then, make noises, occasionally do some good (great transfer window in 2014/15 and 2016/17), and then the rest of their actions don't point to any long term ambition or infrastructure or process of getting to a certain point, playing a certain way, with a philosophy for how the club can grow. It's all year by year, game by game and all the big calls get avoided or half-heartedly made by Sully.

This is my opinion of course.

To be honest, I'm not a massive fan of Moyes. His FT appointment doesn't excite me. However, I think it is in our best interests, in terms of building something, if he stays. We had some good games under him, during a turbulent year, he did solve problems with personnel and formation, we played some good football at the back end of the year, he transformed Arnie and integrated Rice. And, most importantly, he has a good backroom team, knows the squad now, has been here 6 months and presumably knows what we need to get better and solve last years issues. Changing him now, with nobody lined up officially and nobody of any quality, would be another incredibly stupid decision to make giving the shortening of the window and the World Cup. As many have said, it doesn't matter if it is Moyes or somebody else, unless the problems off the pitch are sorted and money provided we will be having these same chats in a years time.

MrsGrey

Interesting stuff, alderz. Quite a few mythbusters in there (re other clubs/managers) ;ok

sweepy23

Suz, what I'm hearing is the opposite.

Either way, I hope we find out the truth (we seldom do).

If he's leaving on his own accord because of the way Sully runs the club then I hope we find out and it forces Sully's hand to hire a proper CEO or DoF.

I'll be really disappointed if three years into the new stadia, where supposedly the opportunities were endless, we haven't moved forward one bit. It's already opportunity missed, but please Sully show us we can still move forward.

Show us don't tell us.

I believe that this year we have another huge opportunity. None of the teams promoted last year have gone down. They normally struggle in the second season. That is 6 teams in the premiership that would have been there for 12 months or less and there are others (the likes of Bournemouth, Watford and Palace) which we should be doing better than. Please Sully don't mess this opportunity up... again.

sweepy23

Luke - totally agree about the fact that Moyes has the best intentions and also I believe knows how the club should be set up off and on the pitch, and what the training facilities should be like. We need someone like him or Arsene to straighten this club out. Like Grey has said, Moyes would bring stability but also a vision. we need to improve and grow.

Lukerz

sweepy ;ok

Ken Dyer in the Standard reporting to could take up to 10 days before a decision is made.

As if the decision hasn't already been made. They don't want him, but will offer him it if all else fails.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz said:

sweepy ;ok

Ken Dyer in the Standard reporting to could take up to 10 days before a decision is made.

7-10 days ;wahoo

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

It will be very confusing if the Daves don't know what's going to happen.

You'd have thought they'd know whether they wanted Moyes to continue or not based on whether we stay up or not, or at least in the manner we stay up etc.

If the season has finished and now they're going to have a little look around and put some feelers out, it will be really frustrating. Time gets away from you quickly in the summer with people on holiday etc, not to mention the World Cup.

I'd be shocked if they didn't want Moyes to stay on (regardless of my own feelings about him). He seems to suit their 'kind' of appointment and hasn't done enough wrong IMO to persuade them to look elsewhere.

They kept Grant and Allardyce and to an extent Bilic on when fan negativity was much higher than it is right now towards Moyes. Because of that, I can only see them letting go of Moyes because a) He doesn't want the job or b) A preferred manager in their eyes (e.g. Benitez) is lined up and has basically accepted the job.

If we drift into the summer without a manager I will lose the last drops of faith I have in this board. We need stability, structure and improvement, and that needs to start happening this week. Not halfway through the summer when they've finally got a manager in place.

MrsGrey

Lukerz said:

sweepy ;ok

Ken Dyer in the Standard reporting to could take up to 10 days before a decision is made.

Could take? up to? There's a man who knows no more than the rest of us.

OldCastleSwift

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes said:

If we drift into the summer without a manager I will lose the last drops of faith I have in this board.

Sadly, the Cookie Club had to disband when Rav and Twist left the forum.

jay_in_cpt

I never wanted Moyes when he came, I made that clear on here.
He IMO simply isn't a fit, while some will disagree & argue what fits, Moyes IMHO simply doesn't, but don't ask me why!.
If he should stay , it's fine, I mean after all I'm just a fan who's always supported the team wherever my life may be.
Ok this is what I want to happen.
Rafa Benitez has been the " preferred choice " even before Bilic was employed ( who I still miss )....
According to all those reports then...
So nothing should have changed their mind on him, he guided the Toon to a 10thplace with let's face it, a below average squad IMO, so nothing has made his worth surely any less.
So if it's the case they are still unsure on Moyes, which we don't know tho, but if the case , just prove a point and go all guns to get him.....
Whatever the cost, if that's always been their 1st choice, splash the cash & roll the dice......
And if not, I'll accept Moyes, whether I like it or not, he did what was asked, some good performances and IMO he's not a bad manager , just not for us.....

claretandbluesky

The difficulty in my view is because the original question regarding whether Moyes was a very good manager as established during his time at Everton, when he over achieved with regard budget etc, or the underachieving one as derived from his time at Man Utd, Socieadad and Sunderland, places at which he blatantly did not achieve what was hoped and was sacked accordingly, has yet to be answered.

You cannot say he has failed as he has kept us up but he has not made us look a different side to the one Slav had and in my view although Moyes deserves the credit for changing his position I think were you to take Arnie out of our squad we would have gone down (slav's purchase) and I feel sure there are more than a few Stoke fans who will believe they would have stayed up had they not sold him. Did Moyes keep us up or did Arnie? On reflection I think there are better managers out there but I am not sure we would attract them at present, Rafa for example, but I also wouldn't criticise the decision to give Moyes a new contract for next season to see if Everton Moyes is still alive and well. What I would be sure of however is that if I could only keep Arnie or Moyes I think keeping Arnie will make most difference to our season. I believe him to be a 50m striker and we will never attract one of those at present if we sell him.

Although I agree with the old saying that one man does not make a team we do have so many examples of individuals making a vast difference.

MrsGrey

I think it's only fair that if, when the players under-perform and the team does badly, the manager gets the blame then when the players play well and the team does well, the manager gets the credit.

So if he is to be judged (as per your opening argument) as a good manager (Everton's results) or a poor manager (the other clubs' results) then why not apply the same to his tenure at West Ham?

You seem to be moving the goalposts? If you want to take account of the contribution the players made to his success/failure (as per your Arnie example) then you have to factor that in at the other clubs too, surely?

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Alderzzz fine work on those stats and graphs mate ;ok

We spent 87 days in the bottom three ;nonono

Got to be honest had I been asked I’d never of thought it was anywhere near that long!!

Regarding Moyes, did well at the weekend, he got it spot on and that it how I want to see us play, I actually don’t think him and Bilic are that different, it’s a fine balance between being solid and punishing on the break with pace....

The Dave’s, what a pair they are, how do you manage to get yourself into these types of situations? They’re almost certainly touting other managers, hoping one will take the bait, if they do they say goodbye to Moyes if they don’t they’ll say he was always their number 1 choice (until it inevitably comes out later on). They’re scatter gun approach stinks of being amateurs at this game after trying for 25 years.

I’m really happy that Moyes appears to be calling them out on certain things, fair play to him.

sweepy23

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard said:

I’m really happy that Moyes appears to be calling them out on certain things, fair play to him.

;ok

claretandbluesky

I agree it's wrong to accredit all blame to a manager when it's clear players are underperforming, but in my view Moyes has not answered the question of whether he can take us forward or not yet. With regard players I did say there are examples of one player changing a teams fortunes and I feel Arnie has been that significant this season. I think the difference in my argument with regard his tenure at Everton and West Ham is time, at Everton he achieved over a long period of time and was an undoubted success,and he has yet to have that time with us, and my point being that in the short time he has had, whilst I am undecided as to his merit, I personally feel the deciding factor in our pulling clear eventually was Arnie. So yes the manager should not be without credit but at the same time one player can distort the picture that the manager perhaps benefits from disproportionally . Some would say Payet made us so much better than we were as a group without him and in turn made us sing super Slav when really Payet was the deciding factor of that season. In the same way I am suggesting without Arnie we may not have stayed up, but that is all just an opinion, and it's not even one I am wed to but it is one I feel worth considering when trying to appraise Moyes's time with us, which is what this thread is about.

I can only guess but I would imagine Moyes himself would suggest he could have turned it around at Man Utd given that time, and the resources that subsequent managers have been given. But this is all conjecture and so doesn't help us when taking a view of is he the one to take us forward or not.

sweepy23

Also slightly worried that should Moyes leave for another PL club he may poach Rice and Arnie

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

Why would we sell Rice and Arnie to another mid-table team? The owners would have to really fancy a riot for that to happen.