The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50
This discussion has been closed.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Categories
- 1.9K All Categories
- 1 Site Stuff
- 31 Admin (FAQs, rules, queries etc.)
- The Boleyn Arms
- 51 General Chatter
- 9 Member info & Family Album
- 3 Radio Llama (music videos)
- 560 Fun & Games
- 176 BA Predictor Threads
- 6 Fantasy Football
- 52 Word Games
- 4 Quizzes
- 2 Pun Threads
- 360 Magic Minutes
- 3 Other Fun & Games
- 143 Current West Ham
- 214 Men's First Team
- 4 Women's Team
- 13 PL2 & Academy
- 36 Management & Board
- 16 Stadium & Training Ground
- 32 West Ham Miscellaneous
- West Ham Matches
- 468 Match Threads
- 138 MOTM
- 12 West Ham Nostalgia
- 37 Former Players and Staff
- 5 Past Games & Glories
- 43 Transfers
- 51 Transfer Speculation
- 88 Completed Transfers
- 59 Internationals
- 52 Men's Internationals
- 5 Women's Internationals
- 2 Youth Internationals
- 141 Football Chatter
- 43 Football Chatter
- 289 Other Teams & Matches
- 27 Other Players & Staff
Comments
Your 'what ifs' are interesting, but a a very limited way of evaluating whether people will 'do the right thing' (in a Judaeo-Christian sense, at least, since not all cultures or societies operate in that type of moral framework). Your conclusion that most people are 'good' because most people wouldn't murder seems to me simplistic. Furthermore that most people won't steal based solely on a scenario where (a) they won't steal from someone less fortunate than themselves or (b) they already have the item that they could steal and it is of limited value is, to me, not a sufficient test of their honesty.
Finally, your 'primitive societies' comment: while there was no ownership of land or water, it isn't the case that all food (caught grown or gathered) or things made (tools, clothing, jewellery) was commonly owned.
Finally finally, even were it as you say (in primitive societies) it doesn't follow that this is how people are by nature - only that this is how they are in those particular circumstances. And since you argue that (modern) societal structures/systems can influence how people behave .... then you have to accept that maybe those primitive folks were only 'good' because of their circumstances.
And even more finally, even those societies had people who dd not adhere to the 'moral code' - so I'm not swayed by your argument.
PS, I now 3 people who have at one time or another been thieves. None of them really needed the stuff they stole, they just wanted it and it was there for the taking, so they took it. They are in all other respects really nice people, fine upstanding citizens, moral AND law-abiding.
PPS. I don't know any murderers, but I do know a few who occasionally drive while over the limit.
On your second point, spin and fear seem to be the political norm now, you only have to look at the American Presidential race. It is sad, but true. Perhaps we have a press and a set of politicians we deserve.
And finally, I do hope that Turkey is in by Christmas................... ;biggrin
imo, if you remove one set of beliefs and ideas, some other will come in to take their place.
And the bases instincts will re-appear, justifying themselves on a new ideology. imo.
I know that this is a thread on leaving the EU, but the point was made early on that Brexiters were likely to be little Englanders, thick and racist. Some undoubtedly would be, as would some remainers, I just wanted to give my take on Brexit. Went a bit off tangent at times.
I`ve always said from the start that the concept of the EU is pretty sound. It`s the domination (perceived or real) from Brussels that is the problem for most. Which brings me back to "taking back control" I.E. local decisions made by local people. It is what most people trust.
SPREAD ANARCHY
and someone had scrawled underneath
DON`T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
;lol
I wasn't equating genocide and mass murder with a handful of threats made on Twitter and Facebook, I was referring to your point:
"People are forced, in the extreme, not by their natural instincts to commit acts of torture and genocide, but by the state and the threat of violence."
Also, thanks for the lighter side of you, I was beginning to wonder if you had one ;biggrin
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2016/11/04/liz-truss-is-unfit-for-office-and-should-resign/
It's almost as if she is in cahoots with the Mail/Murdoch press.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-immigration-uk-freedom-movement-myths-eu-referendum-theresa-may-amber-rudd-a7393136.html#gallery
And this:
https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-52-48-per-cent-voter-turnout-electoral-register-7399226?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100
I've read nearly all of this thread from the start, without contributing (too much). It doesn't affect me directly, hence I wouldn't of voted even if I could of.
How refreshing it is to see so many people debate about a subject that obviously can get people more than a bit worked up, and done with the right amount of respect.
Even when that may of got out of hand it was quickly defused.
Well done to all of you
;clap
His comment seems to me to be referring to some who voted leave, although I see how it could be interpreted as meaning all.
Perhaps you might like to ask NE to clarify.
As far as my own view goes, I have no doubt that some 'leave' voters are racists and xenophobes. Indeed, you only have to look at some of the things said and done during the campaign, never mind subsequently. And I'm not unhappy to label those calling for Gina Millar to be publicly hanged 'foaming at the mouth'. Nor do I think it wide of the mark that someone who argues (following yesterdays legal judgement) that the best way forward now is for the army to stage a coup should be described as 'swivel eyed'.
That's my opinion.
Sadly, my brother does come under the category
Contrary to what NE believes (and probably some others), which I am sure is due to my comments on this thread, I believe I have not said which way I voted or even if I did - to be honest it is irrespective since the vote, as there was a majority vote to leave I believe that should be respected (as I am sure the remain voters would have wanted it to be if the vote had been to remain) and we should now be working together to achieve the best outcome for the UK. I must admit I am frankly both quite a bit ashamed and embarrassed by certain sections of the remain side (particularly some of the higher profile and media types) who seem to think that the vote should not be respected and have acted like spoilt children, throwing their toys out of the pram, have been all huffy and throwing tantrums - Bit like that girl in Just William, doesn't get her own way so starts having a tantrum declaring "I'll scream and scream until I'm sick" until she does, just because the vote did not go their way.
There were inaccuracies and untruths banded about from both sides, the only one from the remain side to have to so far have been anywhere close was regarding the fall in the value of the pound - however as most finance and economics 'experts' seem to think this was a rebalancing of the UK economy (as the pound was 10% or so over-valued anyway) that has been overdue for 30 years, you have to wonder if some people have not just used the leave vote as a convenient excuse to do that and not get the blame (not saying that is true, only you just have to wonder).
There is a lot of anger at the decision of the judges in the recent case regarding triggering Article 50, whilst I do not condone the vitriolic comments made at some of those involved in bringing the case nor directed at the judges (on social media and in the media), I do feel that those who voted to leave have every right to question the motives of those involved and scrutinise the judges decision (which has been subject to an appealed - so this is not over yet). To say they can't, given the antics of some of the remain side since the vote to try to stop and undermine the process to leave, is hypocritical and disingenuous in the extreme - it is tantamount to saying I can say what I want but you can't have an opinion, view or voice.
I have to agree with a comment in an earlier thread that some of the more prominent remain camp have been acting with a certain sense of smugness and self satisfaction, some have even intimated this is the first step in blocking the UK from leaving the EU (this is my impression from the interviews on various news channels I have seen over the last few days).
As for all the articles that are frequently posted in this thread, most of them are conjecture, supposition and assumptions based on peoples opinions of what 'Might', 'May' or 'Could' happen based on a certain set of circumstances taking place in the future - even though they are not even certain exactly what those circumstances will consist of, or the direction they will lead. Very few contain any hard facts, apart for the fact they are someone's opinion of what 'might', 'may' or 'could' happen.
I see the FSTE (and other) indexes are taking a bit of a beating at the moment which is being attributed to 'Uncertainty' over the result of the US elections (even though big losses have only been registered across the board since the Article 50 decision by the judges). In the same period the value of the pound has risen slightly (a couple of cents against the Dollar and about 1.2 against the Euro - described as the pound 'soaring' in the press) which has been attributed to the article 50 decision. ;hmm Now, not being an 'expert' but applying common sense, it seems to me if uncertainty over the US elections are have a negative effect on share prices globally, then they would also be having a negative effect on the US dollar (hence the rise in the value of the pound) - not suggesting at all that there is some creative reporting going on in the media....... OK, yes I am ;biggrin
What has actually taken place
A referendum act was passed in 2015 - it had a choice of being made advisory or binding and chose advisory.
The referendum took place and a voted narrowly, in favour of leaving the EU.
That advice is for parliament and they conduct business through debating and passing laws through voting and then the law passes through the house of lords, and so the parliament should now debate the referendum result taking into account the vote and either vote in accordance with the advice of the people or present a case for not doing so due to national interest. Either say we are taking your advice or we are not because of.........
If voting to leave then article 50 gets triggered as part of due course of parliament exercising it's part in the sovereign democratic process.
What hasn't taken place but some people presume has
A referendum took place to choose whether to leave the EU or not and that referendum is not subject to any further democratic process, as the vote was binding.
Theresa May now has authority alone to trigger article 50 as prime Minister and negotiate terms of her own choosing.
If we take away the hyperbole of the newspapers and political agitators such as farage, then it becomes factually clear that no goal posts have been moved but rather people did not look at the original goal posts, something which people now insisting the original goalposts are adhered such as the judges from Friday's verdict to can take no blame for. No one has prevented Brexit and it is perfectly proceeding on it's path, it may reach the end or it may get stopped at a certain place and rejected. Should it do so it is only subverting democracy if someone didn't understand the original situation from the beginning, I cannot state strongly enough that if parliament does not approve the triggering of article 50 that is democracy as agreed from the outset in action, if for example however they did approve it and TM refused to trigger article 50 that would be a case of subverting democracy.
To the best of my knowledge the above is factual and not opinion.
In my opinion now however the best course is for Remainers and leavers to agree that democracy as practiced in the UK should take it's course and both sides understand what has actually taken place up to this point and what has not. Then if parliament and the lords vote to trigger then us remainers accept it, we may not agree but we accept it, and if Parliament do not vote to trigger then leavers accept that although the referendum voted narrowly on one day in June that the house did not consider it in the nations interest to leave at this immediate point. What you retain through this is democracy, rule of law and sovereignty. You don't get that if you force the issue through because you imagine the referendum was endowed with the power to by pass all further stages of the democratic process, and you don't get that if the remainers just ignore the vote. Due to the referendum a vote should take place in parliament to repeal the 1972 commonwealth act and trigger article 50, and that vote should be vigorously debated, not with the newspapers or buses but through our elected MP's.
This is because they expected a remain vote.
It can't be binding on a remain vote but advisory on a leave vote.
Just because a lot of people didn't understand that doesn't change the fact.
The govt promising to put the result of the referendum into practise was simply that - a promise. I assume (and the situation since doesn't yet show anything other than) that they were sincere in their intention to do so.
However, it was always the case that despite their wish and genuine intention to do so, they might not be able to. So judge them on that -
should they have made that promise, knowing that they might not be able to fulfil it?
should they have been clearer to the voters that they were promising to not ignore the result, but nothing is 100% guaranteed?
should the govt have made it clear to the voters that as part of the process of asking Parliament to pass the law, they promised Parliament it would be advisory only?
should they have made it clear to voters that when parliament passed the law that provided for the govt to carry out a referendum, that law was framed in such a way as to make it non-binding on parliament?
I think to say 'well, they just have to do it, because they promised' is ignoring the realities. I would be much more upset if they reneged on their promise to try to implement the result.
Note: the second paragraph.
There was also an additional para not copied then because it wasn't related o the point under discussion - I will see if I can find it - which compares the legislation that set up this referendum with an earlier one, in which there was specific language to say that it was binding, ensuring that it was legally binding as distinct from non-binding on Parliament. (Remember, Parliament passed these laws, and would have been clear on whether they has passed a binding or non-binding law. And as they are not 'the government' they can do what they like, free from constraint by the govts promises. I would like to think they will weigh up the views of all the public as expressed through the voting, as well as what in their judgement is in the national interest.
Why would anyone want to throw away all the benefits in return for what, apart from the real risk and uncertainty of a worsening of the economy and all that entails.
Would you be prepared to tell me the reasons that caused you to vote leave?
Just a minor thing .. you refer to parliament and the House of Lords as if they are distinct. But they aren't. Parliament = House of Commons + House of Lords, and for a law to be passed it has to go through both upper and lower houses.
(I'm sure you knew that, and it was just your terminology.) ;hug
She will not see out 2017 yet alone get to 2020, not up to the job in my view as the she should be prioritising the rule of law and democracy over the referendum, although not everyone in the street will understand the difference she most certainly does and so to use the language she has indicates to me she has decided to fight for one side of the nation against the other rather than truly lead by seeking to unite.
If she states that she is wholly in favour of brexit on account of the referendum result and intends support that position vigorously, but also recognises that a part of Britains position in the world now and the past is because we do things properly, according to law and democratic process, expresses that this process and rule of law has a value and if discarded now will not retain any authority in the future and risks us becoming like nations we would not aspire to be.
She can take the politics out of the situation which I think is what is needed more than anything else at this time, by stating that although she may personally be in favour of brexit she is more in favour of retaining rule of law and recognises fully what the situation is with regard this vote regardless of all the things claimed about the referendum.
Although the lords are somewhat pompous in places they are an important part of the nations governing process. On this issue and I will stress 'at this point', if the commons were to vote to trigger I don't think the lords should prevent it.
http://www.whu606.com/discussion/comment/833987/#Comment_833987 ;clap
Nigel Farage on the Andrew Marr show saying that if the Lords oppose/obstruct the procedure then it would be the end of the upper house - muppet. ;angry