The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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Comments

  • I like the cut of your jib ;thumbsup


    Alternatively, say it was a sting operation. #entrapment
  • Voted for Amexit today - Trump ;ok
  • simonc said:

    Voted for Amexit today - Trump ;ok

    I respect your vote, but I cannot support it - I am not a fan of Shrillery but IMO, Trump simply does not have the temperament to be President of the United States and the weight of responsibility that goes with the office.
  • Chicago, I understand your concerns but like Brexit it is a now or never situation Hillary will double down on all of Obamas failed policies and fill her pockets while doing so. Trump built a business empire & raised some very well balanced children in the process. What he has done in spite of the media & even some republican opposition is quite amazing, this is a movement against the political entitled. Its time for a reset in the USA, Trump may not have been many peoples first choice but he is the only one who can do it now so he gets my vote.
  • GO Cubs! ;wahoo
  • Now that is something that we can agree on - GO CUBS GO!!!! Tomorrow night is going to be crazy
  • With a nod to Ian Dury, "Reasons to be cheerful"
    :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37838087


    ..........not. ;whistle
  • Can't even understand why you would back Trump. Guy is a total nut job.
  • The same could also be said of B LIAR but enough people did ;weep
  • Expat

    Not in the same league, not even close.
  • NE, the chap said "while we expect this to be only a temporary phenomenon........

    "The last time CPI inflation hit 4% was in 2011.....

    And the reason for that was.........erm...................was erm......................

    Prices go up and down, markets go up and down, currencies go up and down. This happens Brexit or no Brexit. Everyone expected economic volatility, there will be economic volatility, we are just about clawing our selves out of one of the longest, deepest World recessions, what caused that, Brexit????? Remainers can point to countless charts, diagrams and statistics both pre and post the Brexit vote and it PROVES nothing. Yeold was absolutely gutted at the Brexit result, but as he says above, do we have a vote every time the markets wobble, every time things look a little uncomfortable? One major cause of economic instability is uncertainty, not until May triggers article 50, not until the UK, the EU and the rest of the World have hammered out their deals (protected the very wealthiest) will graphs and pie charts mean diddly squat. This will take years.










  • It will take years, and we have stepped forward as the test case to see what happens when a someone leaves, do they flourish? stabilise in a similar place? or fall and become a shadow of its former self? I am not sure it was a strategically good move to step forward for that one considering our position of strength. I actually thought Greece would be the first to leave sometime back but they chose to remain despite the massive pressures on them which could potentially have been reduced by leaving the Euro and EU. They had a big incentive to possibly take a course of short to mid term pain for long term benefit, but even if they had theoretically taken that leap the position they could have hoped to find themselves in in ten - fifteen years time would not have looked as good as the position we leapt from, our gamble seems to be can we leave and have it not cause us to collapse, as the potential gain I am not sure is too clear.
  • I think Greece was possibly too broken, too weak and too reliant on Eu bailouts. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I don`t think we will collapse, I can`t think for the life of me why we would. What we need to do is stop talking ourselves down and "get on with it". We desperately need to start making things again, and not necessarily for export, but for us. Not protectionist, not inward looking, but common sense. And I know everyone is banging on about trade and trade deals, but these long drawn out negotiations taken by nameless, faceless bureaucrats, who are they designed ultimately to benefit, us?? or the large multinationals looking for the next market ripe for exploitation? International trade has undoubtedly improved the lives and conditions of thousands of people, but there is always losers, always. Large multinationals are not looking to improve the lives of "ordinary people," they are looking to maximise profits, at whatever cost, human and/or environmental. Free trade and trade deals are designed not with you and me in mind, but for the benefit of big business, big business will look to maximise profit from cheap labour and cheap raw materials, trade deals are arranged to make it easier for big business. The World needs to step back from globalization, the greater centralization of power, take a breath and think again. Small and local is the way to go.
  • I think small and local is definitely the way we are headed at present.
  • Where's your Dunkirk spirit?
  • I think Greece was possibly too broken, too weak and too reliant on Eu bailouts. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I don`t think we will collapse, I can`t think for the life of me why we would. What we need to do is stop talking ourselves down and "get on with it". We desperately need to start making things again, and not necessarily for export, but for us. Not protectionist, not inward looking, but common sense. And I know everyone is banging on about trade and trade deals, but these long drawn out negotiations taken by nameless, faceless bureaucrats, who are they designed ultimately to benefit, us?? or the large multinationals looking for the next market ripe for exploitation? International trade has undoubtedly improved the lives and conditions of thousands of people, but there is always losers, always. Large multinationals are not looking to improve the lives of "ordinary people," they are looking to maximise profits, at whatever cost, human and/or environmental. Free trade and trade deals are designed not with you and me in mind, but for the benefit of big business, big business will look to maximise profit from cheap labour and cheap raw materials, trade deals are arranged to make it easier for big business. The World needs to step back from globalization, the greater centralization of power, take a breath and think again. Small and local is the way to go.

    The concept of local doesn't work anymore. The reason why local butchers / pubs / groceries all close down is because Supermarkets offer cheaper goods in a capitalist society, you can argue all day long about the quality of the product but the large majority of people want cheap food to get them by. If people spend lavishly they do it at a restaurant where the food is cooked for them than having to buy through the roof from a butchers to do it yourself.
    Its a whole lot harder in this day and age to do anything local, we are in a global economy whether you believe it or not. Made in China labelled everywhere and for a reason they produce it cheap and export it and unless the UK is prepared to lower living standards to that of China to compete there is very little that the UK or anyone else will produce that the Chinese cannot do cheaper and for a fraction of the cost.

    Its one of the biggest reasons i voted to remain in the EU because by god do i think the Conservatives wish they could turn the average workers, working conditions into that of China's pittance pay, pittance working conditions.
  • Small boats?
  • Those same conservatives that have raised the minimum wage, are talking about a living wage and have also confirmed that they will safeguard all holiday/sick pay that we currently get as well as looking to improve maternity pay.

    Workers have never had it so good, especially with H&S standards now too. Any government that tries to go back on these minimum standards know they would be booted out straight away.

    Also the referendum was not about party politics but a bigger issue of EU politics. If you don't like what the government does here you can vote against them.
  • edited November 2016
    Tomw85 said:



    Workers have never had it so good,

    ;nonono No way I can agree with this, at all.

    Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..

    I could go on.

    All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.
  • Tomw85 said:

    Those same conservatives that have raised the minimum wage, are talking about a living wage and have also confirmed that they will safeguard all holiday/sick pay that we currently get as well as looking to improve maternity pay.

    Workers have never had it so good, especially with H&S standards now too. Any government that tries to go back on these minimum standards know they would be booted out straight away.

    Also the referendum was not about party politics but a bigger issue of EU politics. If you don't like what the government does here you can vote against them.

    If you believe everything they say ok but NO WAY would i trust them
  • With the ever-increasing numbers on zero-hours contracts, fewer and fewer people are entitled to sick pay. So I doubt that promise will comfort them much.

    And have they committed to increases over time, or will we see it frozen at current levels ad infinitum? I know which one I would bet on.

    As for maternity pay, a similar point applies. And while the payments may remain at the same level, I wonder if all those currently entitled will remain entitled? ;hmm
  • edited November 2016
    Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?
  • I think Greece was possibly too broken, too weak and too reliant on Eu bailouts. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I don`t think we will collapse, I can`t think for the life of me why we would. What we need to do is stop talking ourselves down and "get on with it". We desperately need to start making things again, and not necessarily for export, but for us. Not protectionist, not inward looking, but common sense. And I know everyone is banging on about trade and trade deals, but these long drawn out negotiations taken by nameless, faceless bureaucrats, who are they designed ultimately to benefit, us?? or the large multinationals looking for the next market ripe for exploitation? International trade has undoubtedly improved the lives and conditions of thousands of people, but there is always losers, always. Large multinationals are not looking to improve the lives of "ordinary people," they are looking to maximise profits, at whatever cost, human and/or environmental. Free trade and trade deals are designed not with you and me in mind, but for the benefit of big business, big business will look to maximise profit from cheap labour and cheap raw materials, trade deals are arranged to make it easier for big business. The World needs to step back from globalization, the greater centralization of power, take a breath and think again. Small and local is the way to go.

    The concept of local doesn't work anymore. The reason why local butchers / pubs / groceries all close down is because Supermarkets offer cheaper goods in a capitalist society, you can argue all day long about the quality of the product but the large majority of people want cheap food to get them by. If people spend lavishly they do it at a restaurant where the food is cooked for them than having to buy through the roof from a butchers to do it yourself.
    Its a whole lot harder in this day and age to do anything local, we are in a global economy whether you believe it or not. Made in China labelled everywhere and for a reason they produce it cheap and export it and unless the UK is prepared to lower living standards to that of China to compete there is very little that the UK or anyone else will produce that the Chinese cannot do cheaper and for a fraction of the cost.

    Its one of the biggest reasons i voted to remain in the EU because by god do i think the Conservatives wish they could turn the average workers, working conditions into that of China's pittance pay, pittance working conditions.
    Yeold, you have explained what has happened the past 30 years and for me it quite plainly isn't working. Just because it is what has happened doesn't make it right. Surely having local shops selling local produce is better isn't it? NE said he used to install machines made in England and was proud of the fact, why did we stop making them? Surely "stuff" made and produced locally is better for the planet in the long run. And I agree, the conservatives, capitalists, will always try to lower the cost of production, I.E. labour, this is why Thatcher wanted to smash the unions, it gives them a free ride. I certainly don't want wages and conditions driven down, remaining in the EU can only perpetuate the system that seeks to maintain the status quo, and yes we currently have the tories in charge, but as an independent country surely we have a greater chance of eventually doing things right. The EU currently is an old boys club that is getting bigger and more powerful and I`m not comfortable with that. I think the way forward is for countries, counties, cities, towns to aim towards (as far as is practicably possible) being more self sufficient. It needs a reset, in needs people to forget about their next smartphone, forget about the designer handbag and maybe look at the bigger picture. As part of the EU we have no chance of influencing our own lives, as an independent country we have half a chance. As I`ve said from the start, for me getting out of the EU is a small step, getting rid of the remaining tiers of government would be the ideal. Assuming you can get yourself out of bed in the morning, get yourself washed, dressed and suitably nourished I`m sure that you`ll be alright Yeold, have a bit of self confidence, confidence in your fellow "ordinary people", we can survive without the politicians and bureaucrats you know, we will survive out of the EU.
  • I have just re read that last bit and that is not meant to be personally directed at you yeold, it was meant to demonstrate that ordinary, normal, healthy people are more than capable of directing their own lives without having their hands constantly held by the men in grey.......................
  • NEoldiron said:

    Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?

    I think he said he was an agent of the state......................... ;nonono
  • I am sure we will survive out of the EU how it pans out no one knows and whilst i support Local business, the vast majority of people do not. Market forces dictate that and when it comes to local produce the cost far exceeds the production when competing against multi nationals and other countries because you simply cannot compete against them. A large proportion of people will probably tell you yeah climate change is a problem and we should do something about it. Tell those people to pay another 10 pound a month out of their pocket to do something about it and i bet they probably wouldn't, who can blame them though when there is a mismanagement of trust between people and politicians and those at the top milking everything they can. When there is Zero trust people prefer to do whats best for themselves not for everyone.
  • I am sure we will survive out of the EU how it pans out no one knows and whilst i support Local business, the vast majority of people do not. Market forces dictate that and when it comes to local produce the cost far exceeds the production when competing against multi nationals and other countries because you simply cannot compete against them. A large proportion of people will probably tell you yeah climate change is a problem and we should do something about it. Tell those people to pay another 10 pound a month out of their pocket to do something about it and i bet they probably wouldn't, who can blame them though when there is a mismanagement of trust between people and politicians and those at the top milking everything they can. When there is Zero trust people prefer to do whats best for themselves not for everyone.

    This is where we differ, I believe that ordinary people like you and I would be prepared to pay that bit extra to do the right thing. If we were presented with the facts, a £10 pair of jeans made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh or a £20 pair of jeans from Huddersfield, a battery farm chicken as opposed to a free runner, half the Amazon cut down or a managed forest in Scotland etc etc. As you say, we are not usually given the facts, properly informed, most people will do the right thing. Its the people at the top who generally make the wrong choices.
  • This is why I think we need the EU.

    By the UK govts own estimates, air pollution cases 50,000 early deaths and £27.5bn in costs EVERY YEAR.

    Yet as member of the EU they strenuously resisted efforts to establish a legal requirement to act to reduce air pollution.

    Still, the law was passed in 2010. (Nasty EU, forcing us to do stuff?)

    At that point, the govt knew the UK had illegally high levels of air pollution.

    Still, for 5 years, they govt deferred and demurred, trying to put off for as long as possible the requirement to do something about it. They deliberately based plan and policy on what they knew to be false emissions data. They put the interests of business first, and dragged their heels, rejecting effective solutions on the grounds of cost, and delaying compliance until the last possible point before which they would be fined for non-compliance.

    In 2015, after a legal challenge, fought every step of the way by the govt (the cost of which is borne by the taxpayer) the UK Supreme Court ruled the govt to be acting illegally in failing to tackle the issue. They were told to sort it out.

    So,meanwhile, a further quarter of a million people died prematurely, and the cost to the nation was £137.5m.

    18 months later, the plan they put forward to 'sort it out' has again (after a legal challenge which the govt fought- at what legal cost, never mind the additional health and social costs) has been judged inadequate and still in breach of legal requirements.

    I wonder if all those people whose family members die preventably premature deaths will be cheered by the thought that the UK has taken back control?

    ;angry

  • This is where we differ, I believe that ordinary people like you and I would be prepared to pay that bit extra to do the right thing. If we were presented with the facts, a £10 pair of jeans made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh or a £20 pair of jeans from Huddersfield, a battery farm chicken as opposed to a free runner, half the Amazon cut down or a managed forest in Scotland etc etc. As you say, we are not usually given the facts, properly informed, most people will do the right thing. Its the people at the top who generally make the wrong choices.

    Well, people do have that information and that choice.

    And clearly most people eschew the ethical (for want of a better word) option for the cheap option.

    So I feel that the evidence exists to show that your belief is ill-founded.

    Sadly.
  • edited November 2016
    Mrs G, where in Tesco`s does it say on the label "made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh" We are never given the whole truth. And are you saying that the EU is the lesser of two evils when it comes to government? No government will voluntarily give up power and wealth, the only reason the EU and other "right on" governments are passing environmental legislation is because of activists, voluntary bodies like Greenpeace, WWF, Amnesty International etc etc movements started by ordinary people and not a government or politician in sight. I wonder how they manage?
    And you say "most people" I would bet that most people I know, most people you know, most people Yeold knows,given a real choice, presented directly in front of them would choose "ethical". The sad fact is, when Tesco move in there is no real choice. You say "sadly" Yeold shops locally, I try and do my best, NE burns rich people for fuel, what makes us so special. I honestly think you are underestimating "the masses" The march of the multinational has limited real choice and there is a backlash taking place, there are more and more people becoming "aware" of the damage wrought by multinationals and globalization and people will hopefully look for alternatives.
This discussion has been closed.