Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?
Puzzled as to why you might say things are better now, when from that very article...
changes in working patterns and conditions might (depending on the criteria you use to judge) mean work is 'easier', people are unhappier and more stressed as a result of their work.
While it has liberated people to work from home or from outside the office, it has resulted in ‘information overload, created pressure for an instant response, enabled more sophisticated monitoring and surveillance of employees, and blurred the boundaries between work and non-work time.’
Not, imo, a particularly desirable state of affairs.
Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..
I could go on.
All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.
Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?
If anything with technology advancement now working conditions should improve with flexible working times for parents who can work from home, more tech to save on the hard manual labour, more improvements in design and manufacturing to keep costs down.
Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer, and how lucky that we now have soft jobs that people can do compared to the hard labour jobs of years gone by. Unpaid internships are about to be reviewed, and small businesses now have to provide a pension option.
With the ability for easy communication and for issues to go viral I can only see works rights being improved in the future which is a good thing. Apart from zero hour contracts, which although I don't like they do allow for people to be employed who might otherwise have not been, do you have any evidence that it is getting worse for workers?
disagree workers have been hit hard by the recession caused from the banking crisis and most of the workers conditions have being EU Driven not UK government. Blaming unions for the railways is a joke. Before it was taken over guess which Railway was voted best in the country ? oh yeah the only publicly funded one left which has now gone private. Believe you me myself and tons at southern railway also feel the pain and its definitely not because of unions, its because of fat cats lining their pockets trying to make a profit and putting zero zilch nothing not one iota of money back into making the railways any good.
Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?
I am for my sins but try not to hold that against me. I am curious to see how my job makes a difference to the points I have put across?
Sorry, an estate agent, I`ve now lost all respect for any point of view you have put forward thus far and will not be reading your posts in future............. ;biggrin
Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..
I could go on.
All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.
Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?
If anything with technology advancement now working conditions should improve with flexible working times for parents who can work from home, more tech to save on the hard manual labour, more improvements in design and manufacturing to keep costs down.
Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer, and how lucky that we now have soft jobs that people can do compared to the hard labour jobs of years gone by. Unpaid internships are about to be reviewed, and small businesses now have to provide a pension option.
With the ability for easy communication and for issues to go viral I can only see works rights being improved in the future which is a good thing. Apart from zero hour contracts, which although I don't like they do allow for people to be employed who might otherwise have not been, do you have any evidence that it is getting worse for workers?
disagree workers have been hit hard by the recession caused from the banking crisis and most of the workers conditions have being EU Driven not UK government. Blaming unions for the railways is a joke. Before it was taken over guess which Railway was voted best in the country ? oh yeah the only publicly funded one left which has now gone private. Believe you me myself and tons at southern railway also feel the pain and its definitely not because of unions, its because of fat cats lining their pockets trying to make a profit and putting zero zilch nothing not one iota of money back into making the railways any good.
Yeold, it`s not the EU that has stood firm and proud for workers rights, it`s ordinary people, unions. The lot of the common man has been made progressively better through direct action, not by governments, governments have conceded workers "rights" bit by bit but only because of strong labour movements. Incidentally, organised unions started in the UK, a lot radical thinkers have gravitated towards the UK over the centuries as a hotbed for radical thought and militant action. The UK has generally led the way in regards to "organised labour". Mrs G, I agree, I tend to think (disregarding official figures) that the lot of the average worker has actually got worse over the past few decades. People are tending to feel pressured into working longer and harder, first in the office, last out, no lunch etc etc and this is openly applauded and encouraged. And zero hours contracts are a joke. I actually think in the language you use, Yeold uses, Tom uses and NE uses we are all singing from the same hymn book, but are just on different pages. About a 150 years ago there was a strain of thought that looked at the advances in technology, mechanisation, agriculture etc and came to the conclusion that in the future (and they proposed the very near future) that society could be organised in a way that none of us would have to work more than 4 or 5 hours a day. Well the manpower is there, the technology is certainly there, what went wrong? They must be absolutely laughing their socks off. Yeold, you appear to be agitating for the dual principles of "getting rid of the fat cats" and the benefits of public (common) ownership. ;ok
Buses and trains, and as electrical vehicles seem to be more efficient and eco friendly then their mode of propulsion would be electricity. Although I think there is a push for hydrogen propelled vehicles which from my understanding use hydrogen which is free and naturally occurring (?) and totally non polluting (?).
Fantastic news, now MPs must vote with their intelligence and their conscience and not pretend that the febrile response of a minority of the people constitute anything like the strength and authority of a Sovereign Parliament
Fantastic news, now MPs must vote with their intelligence and their conscience and not pretend that the febrile response of a minority of the people constitute anything like the strength and authority of a Sovereign Parliament
Sorry Swiss but you have put MP's and intelligence in the same sentence. Not sure I understand. ;hmm
M Yeold, you appear to be agitating for the dual principles of "getting rid of the fat cats" and the benefits of public (common) ownership. ;ok
Nationalise the railways. Private ownership is such a joke when it comes to railways, honestly I heard people provide arguments for both sides but private ownerships of the railways has got to the point where it just does not work what so ever. There are so many nations across earth that have 100x better train services than we do its almost a national embarrassment and joke the amount we pay to get across our country. I heard you can get the bullet train in Japan to cover 3 times the distance in half the time for the same price as a ticket from London to Manchester its an absolute Sham.
Just edited previous comment, yeold, to take out most of the quote.
A reminder/plea to allposters ... please don't blockquote for the sake of it, or blockquote reams of stuff that doesn't need to be repeated. As a courtesy to other readers and to avoid filling up the page.
Ta very muchly.
If you are worried that your comment is on a different page to he thing you are commenting on, you can link to it without blockquoting, but right-clicking on the timestamp and choose copy link location. ;ok
I just tried right clicking on the time stamp and chose my copy link location and I think I may have hacked into The Pentagon....................
Mrs G. I have just learned to do the quote someone else thing, which is why I am using it so liberally, please don`t take away my fun. I also learned how to do:
Swiss. If Parliament voted to trigger article 50 would that be OK? as you seem to suggest that politicians are far more intelligent and moral than the swivel eyed frothy mouthed masses. From this premise I assume that if Trump becomes president of the US, as leader of the most powerful country in the World, he will stand head and shoulders above the rest of us in all respects.
Lots of comments to reply to so will try to sum up in one post. If you feel I haven't responded to anything then feel free to ask me again.
Mrs Grey I will start with you. In my opinion there are two different things happening for workers and I may not have been clear in my earlier posts. If I split into two different groups I think we may be on more common ground.
Working conditions - I would much rather be working today than 50 plus years ago as I do feel we have better working conditions and rights. Working culture - On the other hand I also accept that the work life balance has got worse. Most families need two incomes now to survive and there is ever increasing pressure to work late or stay connected through technology which detracts from our day to day lives.
I was commenting more on the conditions not culture. Maybe I was being too simplistic, but I would hope all agree there has been improvement there.
Yeold I do actually believe that services like transport should be government run so that there can be national and local infrastructure put in place that links in and works well. The only problem is if the Government can do this better that the private sector. I think that there is a lot of waste in public services, but at the same time key infrastructure and services should be outside of markets/profitability making and in the interests of the nation. However would we all be prepared to pay the tax needed for these to be run how we would want?
Madcap I wouldn't trust me either
Finally, Swiss what minority??? I am pretty sure it was the majority that voted to leave. Far too often those 17.5m people are dismissed and uneducated idiots that got it wrong just because those that wanted to remain don't like the outcome. If I was an MP it would be remiss of me not to consider how my constituents voted when it comes to me casting my own vote.
click the quote and then edit out the irrelevant bits
copy the bit you want to quote, paste it into your post, highlight it and click the icon that looks like a speech box. You'd need to add the user's name.
It's only really an issue when someone has written a long post and that all gets quoted.
Tom, the minority of the population that voted to leave, is what I imagine swiss was referring to.
On the MP question, I commented at the time, that if referendum votes were mapped into constituencies, I'm not sure the result would have been the same.
I expect someone soon will revisit the referendum results and attempt to make a 'constituency map' - I would be interested to see which side had a majority in that scenario.
I almost hope parliament votes against triggering article 50. The next election would be fun. UKIP would make huge gains. I can see Nigel Farage as our next prime minister welcoming the first lady, Melania, with a sly little kiss and a wink as her and Donald bound gracefully off the steps of Airforce 1. Fantastic. ;wahoo
Fantastic news, now MPs must vote with their intelligence and their conscience and not pretend that the febrile response of a minority of the people constitute anything like the strength and authority of a Sovereign Parliament
Sorry Swiss but you have put MP's and intelligence in the same sentence. Not sure I understand. ;hmm
I understand your point completely. MPs are often far too representative of the general public, although with more delusions of grandeur and pomposity, enhanced proclivity for vice, and a more questionable moral compass.
But I refer primarily to the golden thread of political principle that runs through Britain's history, which is the sovereignty of Parliamentary decisions, won in public opposition to Royal and aristocratic privilege, even if this has to be expressed sometimes by venal and dislikable people.
But it's the same as that other great British tradition, that of trial by a jury of ordinary people "good and true". Its the same idea with exactly the same drawbacks but the principle remains strong when people are called upon to respect and implement it.
That's why I will have no difficulty at all with the Brexit decision once Parlament has had its rightful say and if it confirms the referendum opinion. If Parliament votes accordingly I for one will immediately shut up about Brexit and pull hard for its success.
Either way we are going to face tough negotiations with the EU so even if we are negotiating to stay or leave we will be better served by doing so as a united country.
If the vote is to stay then I would accept that and back it as it is the division which could hurt us more in the long term.
Comments
changes in working patterns and conditions might (depending on the criteria you use to judge) mean work is 'easier', people are unhappier and more stressed as a result of their work. Not, imo, a particularly desirable state of affairs.
Believe you me myself and tons at southern railway also feel the pain and its definitely not because of unions, its because of fat cats lining their pockets trying to make a profit and putting zero zilch nothing not one iota of money back into making the railways any good.
Mrs G, I agree, I tend to think (disregarding official figures) that the lot of the average worker has actually got worse over the past few decades. People are tending to feel pressured into working longer and harder, first in the office, last out, no lunch etc etc and this is openly applauded and encouraged. And zero hours contracts are a joke. I actually think in the language you use, Yeold uses, Tom uses and NE uses we are all singing from the same hymn book, but are just on different pages.
About a 150 years ago there was a strain of thought that looked at the advances in technology, mechanisation, agriculture etc and came to the conclusion that in the future (and they proposed the very near future) that society could be organised in a way that none of us would have to work more than 4 or 5 hours a day. Well the manpower is there, the technology is certainly there, what went wrong? They must be absolutely laughing their socks off.
Yeold, you appear to be agitating for the dual principles of "getting rid of the fat cats" and the benefits of public (common) ownership. ;ok
Mods ;ok
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785
In then we will agree another rebate and this will be put to bed...
Not sure I understand. ;hmm
A reminder/plea to allposters ... please don't blockquote for the sake of it, or blockquote reams of stuff that doesn't need to be repeated. As a courtesy to other readers and to avoid filling up the page.
Ta very muchly.
If you are worried that your comment is on a different page to he thing you are commenting on, you can link to it without blockquoting, but right-clicking on the timestamp and choose copy link location. ;ok
As soon as I realised the referendum wasn't binding I thought this may become an election issue.
Basically giving the country another chance to vote on the exit.
Farage is currently acting leader of UKIP, and has had his say.
I won't post it here, as I don't want to give him and his ilk the oxygen of publicity. ;biggrin
I agree an early election is a greater possibility now, since the Article 50 parliamentary process could pave the way for a no-confidence vote.
Mrs G. I have just learned to do the quote someone else thing, which is why I am using it so liberally, please don`t take away my fun. I also learned how to do:
THIS ^^^^^
recently but that soon lost its allure.
MadCap - I have nothing but admiration for the way you are using the quote function. Careful selection of relevant and pithy points ;ok
Edit - you're joking about the Pentagon, right? ;puzzled
Wonder what the Seig Heil front page will be tomorrow. I bet they mention Migrants / Muslims or Cancer...
Mrs Grey I will start with you. In my opinion there are two different things happening for workers and I may not have been clear in my earlier posts. If I split into two different groups I think we may be on more common ground.
Working conditions - I would much rather be working today than 50 plus years ago as I do feel we have better working conditions and rights.
Working culture - On the other hand I also accept that the work life balance has got worse. Most families need two incomes now to survive and there is ever increasing pressure to work late or stay connected through technology which detracts from our day to day lives.
A quick link to gov figures showing a big decline in worker deaths compared to 50 years ago - http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/fatalinjuries.pdf
I was commenting more on the conditions not culture. Maybe I was being too simplistic, but I would hope all agree there has been improvement there.
Yeold I do actually believe that services like transport should be government run so that there can be national and local infrastructure put in place that links in and works well. The only problem is if the Government can do this better that the private sector. I think that there is a lot of waste in public services, but at the same time key infrastructure and services should be outside of markets/profitability making and in the interests of the nation. However would we all be prepared to pay the tax needed for these to be run how we would want?
Madcap I wouldn't trust me either
Finally, Swiss what minority??? I am pretty sure it was the majority that voted to leave. Far too often those 17.5m people are dismissed and uneducated idiots that got it wrong just because those that wanted to remain don't like the outcome. If I was an MP it would be remiss of me not to consider how my constituents voted when it comes to me casting my own vote.
Two options:
On the MP question, I commented at the time, that if referendum votes were mapped into constituencies, I'm not sure the result would have been the same.
I expect someone soon will revisit the referendum results and attempt to make a 'constituency map' - I would be interested to see which side had a majority in that scenario.
;wahoo
But I refer primarily to the golden thread of political principle that runs through Britain's history, which is the sovereignty of Parliamentary decisions, won in public opposition to Royal and aristocratic privilege, even if this has to be expressed sometimes by venal and dislikable people.
But it's the same as that other great British tradition, that of trial by a jury of ordinary people "good and true". Its the same idea with exactly the same drawbacks but the principle remains strong when people are called upon to respect and implement it.
That's why I will have no difficulty at all with the Brexit decision once Parlament has had its rightful say and if it confirms the referendum opinion. If Parliament votes accordingly I for one will immediately shut up about Brexit and pull hard for its success.
Either way we are going to face tough negotiations with the EU so even if we are negotiating to stay or leave we will be better served by doing so as a united country.
If the vote is to stay then I would accept that and back it as it is the division which could hurt us more in the long term.
However, thank god for the supremacy of the law and not the likes of Arron Banks.