The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

TheMadcapLaughs

I have just re read that last bit and that is not meant to be personally directed at you yeold, it was meant to demonstrate that ordinary, normal, healthy people are more than capable of directing their own lives without having their hands constantly held by the men in grey.......................

TheMadcapLaughs

NEoldiron said:

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?

I think he said he was an agent of the state......................... ;nonono

Yeoldhammer

I am sure we will survive out of the EU how it pans out no one knows and whilst i support Local business, the vast majority of people do not. Market forces dictate that and when it comes to local produce the cost far exceeds the production when competing against multi nationals and other countries because you simply cannot compete against them. A large proportion of people will probably tell you yeah climate change is a problem and we should do something about it. Tell those people to pay another 10 pound a month out of their pocket to do something about it and i bet they probably wouldn't, who can blame them though when there is a mismanagement of trust between people and politicians and those at the top milking everything they can. When there is Zero trust people prefer to do whats best for themselves not for everyone.

TheMadcapLaughs

Yeoldhammer said:

I am sure we will survive out of the EU how it pans out no one knows and whilst i support Local business, the vast majority of people do not. Market forces dictate that and when it comes to local produce the cost far exceeds the production when competing against multi nationals and other countries because you simply cannot compete against them. A large proportion of people will probably tell you yeah climate change is a problem and we should do something about it. Tell those people to pay another 10 pound a month out of their pocket to do something about it and i bet they probably wouldn't, who can blame them though when there is a mismanagement of trust between people and politicians and those at the top milking everything they can. When there is Zero trust people prefer to do whats best for themselves not for everyone.

This is where we differ, I believe that ordinary people like you and I would be prepared to pay that bit extra to do the right thing. If we were presented with the facts, a £10 pair of jeans made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh or a £20 pair of jeans from Huddersfield, a battery farm chicken as opposed to a free runner, half the Amazon cut down or a managed forest in Scotland etc etc. As you say, we are not usually given the facts, properly informed, most people will do the right thing. Its the people at the top who generally make the wrong choices.

MrsGrey

This is why I think we need the EU.

By the UK govts own estimates, air pollution cases 50,000 early deaths and £27.5bn in costs EVERY YEAR.

Yet as member of the EU they strenuously resisted efforts to establish a legal requirement to act to reduce air pollution.

Still, the law was passed in 2010. (Nasty EU, forcing us to do stuff?)

At that point, the govt knew the UK had illegally high levels of air pollution.

Still, for 5 years, they govt deferred and demurred, trying to put off for as long as possible the requirement to do something about it. They deliberately based plan and policy on what they knew to be false emissions data. They put the interests of business first, and dragged their heels, rejecting effective solutions on the grounds of cost, and delaying compliance until the last possible point before which they would be fined for non-compliance.

In 2015, after a legal challenge, fought every step of the way by the govt (the cost of which is borne by the taxpayer) the UK Supreme Court ruled the govt to be acting illegally in failing to tackle the issue. They were told to sort it out.

So,meanwhile, a further quarter of a million people died prematurely, and the cost to the nation was £137.5m.

18 months later, the plan they put forward to 'sort it out' has again (after a legal challenge which the govt fought- at what legal cost, never mind the additional health and social costs) has been judged inadequate and still in breach of legal requirements.

I wonder if all those people whose family members die preventably premature deaths will be cheered by the thought that the UK has taken back control?

;angry

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

This is where we differ, I believe that ordinary people like you and I would be prepared to pay that bit extra to do the right thing. If we were presented with the facts, a £10 pair of jeans made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh or a £20 pair of jeans from Huddersfield, a battery farm chicken as opposed to a free runner, half the Amazon cut down or a managed forest in Scotland etc etc. As you say, we are not usually given the facts, properly informed, most people will do the right thing. Its the people at the top who generally make the wrong choices.

Well, people do have that information and that choice.

And clearly most people eschew the ethical (for want of a better word) option for the cheap option.

So I feel that the evidence exists to show that your belief is ill-founded.

Sadly.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, where in Tesco`s does it say on the label "made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh" We are never given the whole truth. And are you saying that the EU is the lesser of two evils when it comes to government? No government will voluntarily give up power and wealth, the only reason the EU and other "right on" governments are passing environmental legislation is because of activists, voluntary bodies like Greenpeace, WWF, Amnesty International etc etc movements started by ordinary people and not a government or politician in sight. I wonder how they manage?
And you say "most people" I would bet that most people I know, most people you know, most people Yeold knows,given a real choice, presented directly in front of them would choose "ethical". The sad fact is, when Tesco move in there is no real choice. You say "sadly" Yeold shops locally, I try and do my best, NE burns rich people for fuel, what makes us so special. I honestly think you are underestimating "the masses" The march of the multinational has limited real choice and there is a backlash taking place, there are more and more people becoming "aware" of the damage wrought by multinationals and globalization and people will hopefully look for alternatives.

Tomw85

NEoldiron said:

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?

I am for my sins but try not to hold that against me. I am curious to see how my job makes a difference to the points I have put across?

Tomw85

MrsGrey said:

Tomw85 said:

Workers have never had it so good,

;nonono No way I can agree with this, at all.

Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..

I could go on.

All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.

Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2094769/Workers-1950s-worked-longer-hours-tougher-conditions-holiday--happier-now.html

If anything with technology advancement now working conditions should improve with flexible working times for parents who can work from home, more tech to save on the hard manual labour, more improvements in design and manufacturing to keep costs down.

Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer, and how lucky that we now have soft jobs that people can do compared to the hard labour jobs of years gone by. Unpaid internships are about to be reviewed, and small businesses now have to provide a pension option.

With the ability for easy communication and for issues to go viral I can only see works rights being improved in the future which is a good thing. Apart from zero hour contracts, which although I don't like they do allow for people to be employed who might otherwise have not been, do you have any evidence that it is getting worse for workers?

Tomw85

MrsGrey said:

TheMadcapLaughs said:

This is where we differ, I believe that ordinary people like you and I would be prepared to pay that bit extra to do the right thing. If we were presented with the facts, a £10 pair of jeans made by a 10 year old in Bangladesh or a £20 pair of jeans from Huddersfield, a battery farm chicken as opposed to a free runner, half the Amazon cut down or a managed forest in Scotland etc etc. As you say, we are not usually given the facts, properly informed, most people will do the right thing. Its the people at the top who generally make the wrong choices.

Well, people do have that information and that choice.

And clearly most people eschew the ethical (for want of a better word) option for the cheap option.

So I feel that the evidence exists to show that your belief is ill-founded.

Sadly.

Unfortunately I think the majority are numb/uneducated to the issues and are just happy to have the latest fad and live a cheap disposable lifestyle now. Why look after and repair your favourites coat or jump when you can just pop to primark and buy a new one cheap.

Why give hand me downs to your younger siblings when again it is all so cheap. Kids these days don't have any concept on the worth of something and just want what mainstream media says they should want. No child needs an iPhone yet plenty have them.

I try to shop local when I can and I would also like to see the government do more to even the playing field between small and big buisnesses. Why do big companies get better tax breaks than small ones? They already have the advantage of economies of scale when buying so it is unfair to then hit the little guys more. So we may lose a few businesses (unlikely) but even if we do the smaller ones will step up and be happy to do so.

MrsGrey

Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer,

Yes, but your point was that WORKERS are better off.

You implied criticism of the power of the unions is from the point of view of a consumer, not a worker in that sector.

The power of the unions has been massively reduced and membership is massively reduced. Say what you like as an outsider, but this has had a negative impact on workers ability to negotiate for improved pay and conditions.

Longevity is irrelevant to your initial argument that workers have never had it so good: having to work until they are older before they can retire and draw a pension is not an improvement for them.

Whatever the arguments for why they should do so.

MrsGrey

Tomw85 said:

Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2094769/Workers-1950s-worked-longer-hours-tougher-conditions-holiday--happier-now.html

Puzzled as to why you might say things are better now, when from that very article...

changes in working patterns and conditions might (depending on the criteria you use to judge) mean work is 'easier', people are unhappier and more stressed as a result of their work.

While it has liberated people to work from home or from outside the office, it has resulted in ‘information overload, created pressure for an instant response, enabled more sophisticated monitoring and surveillance of employees, and blurred the boundaries between work and non-work time.’

Not, imo, a particularly desirable state of affairs.

Yeoldhammer

Tomw85 said:

MrsGrey said:

Tomw85 said:

Workers have never had it so good,

;nonono No way I can agree with this, at all.

Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..

I could go on.

All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.

Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2094769/Workers-1950s-worked-longer-hours-tougher-conditions-holiday--happier-now.html

If anything with technology advancement now working conditions should improve with flexible working times for parents who can work from home, more tech to save on the hard manual labour, more improvements in design and manufacturing to keep costs down.

Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer, and how lucky that we now have soft jobs that people can do compared to the hard labour jobs of years gone by. Unpaid internships are about to be reviewed, and small businesses now have to provide a pension option.

With the ability for easy communication and for issues to go viral I can only see works rights being improved in the future which is a good thing. Apart from zero hour contracts, which although I don't like they do allow for people to be employed who might otherwise have not been, do you have any evidence that it is getting worse for workers?

disagree workers have been hit hard by the recession caused from the banking crisis and most of the workers conditions have being EU Driven not UK government. Blaming unions for the railways is a joke. Before it was taken over guess which Railway was voted best in the country ? oh yeah the only publicly funded one left which has now gone private.
Believe you me myself and tons at southern railway also feel the pain and its definitely not because of unions, its because of fat cats lining their pockets trying to make a profit and putting zero zilch nothing not one iota of money back into making the railways any good.

TheMadcapLaughs

Tomw85 said:

NEoldiron said:

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you mention some time ago that you were an estate agent?

I am for my sins but try not to hold that against me. I am curious to see how my job makes a difference to the points I have put across?

Sorry, an estate agent, I`ve now lost all respect for any point of view you have put forward thus far and will not be reading your posts in future............. ;biggrin

Yeoldhammer said:

Tomw85 said:

MrsGrey said:

Tomw85 said:

Workers have never had it so good,

;nonono No way I can agree with this, at all.

Unions all but powerless, pension age getting ever higher, zero-hours contracts on the rise, 'gig' economy, unpaid internships masquerading as training, workers in small businesses not benefiting from the same protections as those in large businesses..

I could go on.

All of these are making things worse for workers, not better.

Not the best article I could find with a quick search but at least this shows that we are having to work less hours and get more holiday than before so why do you think it will go backwards?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2094769/Workers-1950s-worked-longer-hours-tougher-conditions-holiday--happier-now.html

If anything with technology advancement now working conditions should improve with flexible working times for parents who can work from home, more tech to save on the hard manual labour, more improvements in design and manufacturing to keep costs down.

Also the union figures are still pretty high and having to travel on a line that is affected by the southern rail issues I feel the pain of the unions on a daily basis. People are living longer so it is only logical that they are working longer, and how lucky that we now have soft jobs that people can do compared to the hard labour jobs of years gone by. Unpaid internships are about to be reviewed, and small businesses now have to provide a pension option.

With the ability for easy communication and for issues to go viral I can only see works rights being improved in the future which is a good thing. Apart from zero hour contracts, which although I don't like they do allow for people to be employed who might otherwise have not been, do you have any evidence that it is getting worse for workers?

disagree workers have been hit hard by the recession caused from the banking crisis and most of the workers conditions have being EU Driven not UK government. Blaming unions for the railways is a joke. Before it was taken over guess which Railway was voted best in the country ? oh yeah the only publicly funded one left which has now gone private.
Believe you me myself and tons at southern railway also feel the pain and its definitely not because of unions, its because of fat cats lining their pockets trying to make a profit and putting zero zilch nothing not one iota of money back into making the railways any good.

Yeold, it`s not the EU that has stood firm and proud for workers rights, it`s ordinary people, unions. The lot of the common man has been made progressively better through direct action, not by governments, governments have conceded workers "rights" bit by bit but only because of strong labour movements. Incidentally, organised unions started in the UK, a lot radical thinkers have gravitated towards the UK over the centuries as a hotbed for radical thought and militant action. The UK has generally led the way in regards to "organised labour".
Mrs G, I agree, I tend to think (disregarding official figures) that the lot of the average worker has actually got worse over the past few decades. People are tending to feel pressured into working longer and harder, first in the office, last out, no lunch etc etc and this is openly applauded and encouraged. And zero hours contracts are a joke. I actually think in the language you use, Yeold uses, Tom uses and NE uses we are all singing from the same hymn book, but are just on different pages.
About a 150 years ago there was a strain of thought that looked at the advances in technology, mechanisation, agriculture etc and came to the conclusion that in the future (and they proposed the very near future) that society could be organised in a way that none of us would have to work more than 4 or 5 hours a day. Well the manpower is there, the technology is certainly there, what went wrong? They must be absolutely laughing their socks off.
Yeold, you appear to be agitating for the dual principles of "getting rid of the fat cats" and the benefits of public (common) ownership. ;ok

NEoldiron

Madcap, a question for you. What would you propose as a means of mass transport and driven by which fuel?

TheMadcapLaughs

Buses and trains, and as electrical vehicles seem to be more efficient and eco friendly then their mode of propulsion would be electricity. Although I think there is a push for hydrogen propelled vehicles which from my understanding use hydrogen which is free and naturally occurring (?) and totally non polluting (?).

Mods ;ok

Moojor

Breaking new on the BBC site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785

Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the European Union, the High Court has ruled.

This means the government cannot trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - beginning formal discussions with the EU - on its own.

Swissiron

Fantastic news, now MPs must vote with their intelligence and their conscience and not pretend that the febrile response of a minority of the people constitute anything like the strength and authority of a Sovereign Parliament

MrsGrey

Have an agree ;ok

MrsGrey

I'd like to see a free vote too, rather than a whipped vote ;ok

Vorselaarhammer

The gradual retreat from the Exit vote...

In then we will agree another rebate and this will be put to bed...

MrsGrey

vorse, I hope so but think perhaps not.

IronHerb

Swissiron said:

Fantastic news, now MPs must vote with their intelligence and their conscience and not pretend that the febrile response of a minority of the people constitute anything like the strength and authority of a Sovereign Parliament

Sorry Swiss but you have put MP's and intelligence in the same sentence.
Not sure I understand. ;hmm

Yeoldhammer

TheMadcapLaughs said:

M
Yeold, you appear to be agitating for the dual principles of "getting rid of the fat cats" and the benefits of public (common) ownership. ;ok

Nationalise the railways. Private ownership is such a joke when it comes to railways, honestly I heard people provide arguments for both sides but private ownerships of the railways has got to the point where it just does not work what so ever. There are so many nations across earth that have 100x better train services than we do its almost a national embarrassment and joke the amount we pay to get across our country. I heard you can get the bullet train in Japan to cover 3 times the distance in half the time for the same price as a ticket from London to Manchester its an absolute Sham.

MrsGrey

Just edited previous comment, yeold, to take out most of the quote.

A reminder/plea to allposters ... please don't blockquote for the sake of it, or blockquote reams of stuff that doesn't need to be repeated. As a courtesy to other readers and to avoid filling up the page.

Ta very muchly.


If you are worried that your comment is on a different page to he thing you are commenting on, you can link to it without blockquoting, but right-clicking on the timestamp and choose copy link location. ;ok

Vorselaarhammer

MrsGrey said:

vorse, I hope so but think perhaps not.

Wait to see the reaction in the next couple of days from UKIP (who ever the leader is).

As soon as I realised the referendum wasn't binding I thought this may become an election issue.

Basically giving the country another chance to vote on the exit.

MrsGrey

Don't have to wait, vorse.

Farage is currently acting leader of UKIP, and has had his say.

I won't post it here, as I don't want to give him and his ilk the oxygen of publicity. ;biggrin

I agree an early election is a greater possibility now, since the Article 50 parliamentary process could pave the way for a no-confidence vote.

TheMadcapLaughs

I just tried right clicking on the time stamp and chose my copy link location and I think I may have hacked into The Pentagon....................

Mrs G. I have just learned to do the quote someone else thing, which is why I am using it so liberally, please don`t take away my fun. I also learned how to do:

THIS ^^^^^

recently but that soon lost its allure.

MrsGrey

;lol

MadCap - I have nothing but admiration for the way you are using the quote function. Careful selection of relevant and pithy points ;ok



Edit - you're joking about the Pentagon, right? ;puzzled

Vorselaarhammer

Is Farage back again... I thought he was off touring America.

Wonder what the Seig Heil front page will be tomorrow. I bet they mention Migrants / Muslims or Cancer...