The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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  • edited December 2016
    Admeus. We now live in a World where we are talking billionaires, not millionaires, and they parade their wealth in ever more ostentatious ways. There has to be something seriously wrong when a tiny number of people are allowed to amass billions upon billions and are able to "pull the strings" behind the scenes on the World stage. The money and resources are there, they always have been, but as you say no government (seemingly anywhere) has the guts to really address the issues of inequality and instead continue to squeeze the rest of us harder and harder. Our morals, ethics, whatever you want to call them, in The Western World are so skewed, so out of kilter, that I honestly think that it can only end in one way, and that is in violence and bloodshed. I CANNOT believe that we are talking about shortfalls in funding for health and education, we really are going backwards. We seem to place more value on luxury yachts, smart phones and gold plated cars than we do on the basic needs of humanity. We have been well and truly brainwashed into into thinking that materialistic consumerism, the latest this and that, are the true markers of human progress whilst we close hospital wards and allow our kids education to be ruined. The gap could be breached in the blink of an eye if we had a different set of priorities. BBB, I may well join you at the gunshop.
  • AdMeus - according to HMRC's own estimates in 2013/14 they lost £34bn to illegal tax fraud and legal tax evasion although there are those that suspect that as its HMRC's job to prevent this they deliberately underestimate the problem with some estimating the loss as anything up to £122bn.

    The NHS annual budget for 2015/16 was £116.4bn
  • Aslef. I thought it was all the fault of social security scroungers, chavs and immigrants. Divide and rule.
  • Madcaps .............. sent you a PM
  • Madcap - benefit fraud was estimated as £1.2bn. Squirrel!
  • Expat, I think I have replied ;puzzled
  • Indeed you have my man ;thumbsup
  • Our morals, ethics, whatever you want to call them, in The Western World are so skewed, so out of kilter, that I honestly think that it can only end in one way, and that is in violence and bloodshed.

    Whilst I can agree with the overall sentiment, please don't think this is just the case in the "Western World" - whilst there are many things many people would like to see changed, you only have to look at almost anywhere outside the UK to realise how lucky we are.

    There are a few Billionaires and Multi-millionaires in India, China, Africa, Arabia, South America ... I think you get my drift ...
  • ;ok fair point, and I agree fully, as I`ve said before, I can`t think of anywhere I`d rather live than here. I think this idea of consumerism/growth (at any cost) has spread from the West (Europe and America) and is "infecting" the rest of The World. It is a greed culture, a get rich quick mentality with little thought for the social or environmental consequences. All this money sloshing around could be doing some good, but it`s not. I just can`t see that it is sustainable and the bubble will burst, I just fear that things may turn really bad. I am hoping (deluded I know) that out of Europe we can attempt, at least, to get our own house in order. Try something a bit different.
  • Agreed Madcap, the 'growth' mantra of the western world is the issue ...
  • Madcap - somehow I don't think Boris, Gove and Farage wanted the UK out of Europe so they could dispense generosity to the masses.....
  • I don't think Boris wanted us out full stop.
  • I don't think Boris knows what he wants on most things......

    .......apart from as much attention from the media as he can get
  • Aslef, I`m hoping that Boris, Gove and Farage will be mere temporary aberrations and one day, in the not too distant, we may have a form of government/system that truly represents the people. As I say, deluded, maybe.
  • The trouble is Madcap, that a government or system that truly represents the people may not be what we actually need or want.We should be careful what we wish for.
    I'm sure that Nazi Germany started off as a system that truly represented a lot of the German people in the early 30's

    We do need a political class to represent us, and some views should not be represented imo
  • TML - I know what you mean, I work for a Company with that mentality. The trouble is, it is a global organisation that in a lot of areas is top heavy with senior roles who's only job is some sort of 'management' function (or as we call them, non-fee earners). In Feb we were told there would be no further appointments at that level unless it was as replacements for people leaving there have been 17 since and only 3 due to people leaving.

    It seems these peoples only function is to come up with more ideas of how the Company can 'Grow' which includes making us provide sales leads - which has not been the roaring success they thought it would, we normally spend the first hour or so of visits listening to all the issues with the back office (which we report but they seem unable to do anything about) functions.

    The problem is they keep employing these people then ramping up the pressure on the fee earners (those at my level and below and the one or two levels to a lesser degree above mine) because profits and income are down despite growth targets being achieved - given that the additional numbers of senior managers roles is costing us over £1 million in the UK alone, if this has been replicated globally it is not hard to work out why that is happening.

    All the senior board and all the others down to Country level communicate to us is information about growth targets, turnover, expenditure, profit, budgets etc., etc. - nothing about the real running of the Company or improvements of service delivery to address the Client issues etc. it is almost as if they have abdicated that responsibility to each individual Country and are only interested in how much we contribute to the Company coffers which they get their extortionate wages and performance (whatever that may be) bonuses from. The thought of taking a bit less and investing a bit more on the front line, which would bring better customer satisfaction and probably more work from them on that basis, does not seem to occur to them.

    when I suggested rather than growth, maybe we should pursue a policy of stabilisation and business improvement for a while then look at growth in a couple of years, I was told I knew nothing about business and leave it to the experts - which considering the job I am employed to do (I actually Client Manage and audit Business Management Systems) shows the people running things have lost touch.

    Aslef - even if all that money was collected, given the UK Spending (around £740 Billion for 2016 and almost £785 Billion for 2017) and all those clamouring for more it would not go that far. The whole Gov't spending structure needs to be reviewed and re-prioritised and some have to accept what they are given as there is no endless supply. Despite what many believe, we can't keep borrowing for today leaving future generations to foot the bill - that is the true failure of the current generation in charge (sort of fits in the TML's views), we have to live within our means and those with the most (although some already do through charitable donations and work) should pay more and look at realistically what they need to live on.
  • BBB, unfortunately, I don`t feel we need a political class to rule over us. They are ordinary people (at best) like you or I, they have no special expertise or talent other than choosing a career in politics. If you accept the premise that democracy, as currently practised, can and does lead to the probability of monsters, as in Hitler, or dangerous people such as Putin or Trump, then perhaps a different type of democracy is required. The more "local" all modes of production and modes of social intercourse are kept, the more accountable those that "control" the flow of goods and services are. Real power can be kept manageable without the need for large, grandiose, overarching political systems. Decisions and agreements that currently take years in regards to housing, transport, power, manufacturing etc etc are often hindered by the very "departments" that are meant to oversee their smooth running. Decisions are also taken at national and international level that run contra to what may actually benefit ordinary local people. In fact these decisions are often taken to benefit an elite few. I do agree though that some views are so morally/ethically repugnant that they deserve no representation at all.
    Admeus, technology applied to produce more, to increase humanities choices and maximise its riches should and could be a desirable thing, if the riches and rewards were shared equally, used to enrich us all, and not at the planets expense. But those that control the means are keeping the vast majority of the spoils for themselves. No-one has the "right" to "more". The very fact that you point to charity, and there are people like Bill Gates and his philanthropic organisations doing on the face of it wonderful work, highlights to me that there is a huge imbalance in our system that needs addressing. But, to me, this imbalance is so drastic, (and the gap is widening as I type), that small reforms, from governments of any persuasion, are nothing more than temporary appeasements. I honestly think that if we continue on our current path, and things get worse before they get better, then in the short to medium term things could "turn nasty". This is why I think that we need radical solutions, wholesale shifts in our political and economic systems rather than reforms.
  • Supreme Court upholds judgement of High Court.

    According to the constitution, an Act of Parliament is needed to authorise the govt to trigger Article 50.


    So far so as it was before.

    But the new bit is that the govt doesn't have to consult the devolved administrations.
  • I foresee another Scottish independence referendum looming on the horizon and this time the SNP might get the result they want.

    Interesting times we live in....
  • I wonder how much it cost the govt to appeal that?
  • Nothing. Cost us a few bob though. ;hmm
  • Who's 'us'?
  • The people.
  • I'm not of that mindset, tbh. 'Taxpayers money' etc.

    It's only our money until we've paid our taxes.

    Then it's the govt's money.

  • I was never our money, gone before it even hits your account. Unless you are self employed and have to do your own tax returns...
  • I am wondering when one of the news jurno's is actually going to ask the one question that Labour, Lib Dems, SNP et al who want conditions attached to triggering article 50 can't answer.

    The EU have already made their position clear - nothing will be on the table at the start and there are some things they will not agree to, so if you attach a conditions for negotiations as part of the article 50 bill which the EU refuse to discuss or entertain, where does that leave things?

    Aslef - SNP are treading a very thin line with an independence vote, I was in Falkirk last week and this obviously came up during a lunch time discussion. Interestingly about six out of ten of those in the room who voted to remain said they would vote to stay with the UK as they felt the benefits they got from the UK Devo Max deal they currently had was better than they would get from the EU - also they were wary of joining the EU as it was clear (despite what Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP said) that this could not happen until after the UK Exit and Scottish independence, and they would have to do it as a new member - not walking into the UK seat and agreements, so they would be getting the Euro and everything being an EU member entailed (including paying towards the Euro zone debt and bailouts), with the ruling bodies (EU Parliament and Commission) being further away than Westminster and Scotland having a lot less influence. Also what would happen with the borders and people who crossed it daily for work. One even posed the question that if several areas clearly had a high level of votes to stay in the UK (not wanting independence) would the SNP allow them to stay and breakaway, using the argument the SNP has for leaving the UK (majority vote to remain in the EU).
  • It would be 8 years before Scotland could join the EU and even then I think Spain would block it just in case the Catalans and Basques decided to follow suit.
  • The SNP will simply leave the threat hanging for the moment and wait and see what deal is reached (if any) and how the UK begins to look, if the UK becomes a regressive nation with economy shrinking, unemployment rising and trade diminishing it will most certainly call another referendum, should however a deal be found in which the UK at least retains it's current level of economy and outlook then it will recognise it would be hard pushed to win a vote. If they call the vote too soon and lose as people want to wait and see they will have moved too soon and lost the opportunity to act once the new UK outlook is established.

    If brexit goes ahead the UK as it stood on June 22nd may have had it's course changed completely for generations to come, and as Phillip Hammond remarked a whole new model may need to be found. Despite all the spin which will be put on it in these times when the politics is taking centre stage the outlook will be clear to see, then they will make a call on whether to have a vote. I don't think we can refuse them as the union will have been demonstrated to have been significantly changed from the one they were previously part of and we obviously cannot claim once you enter a union of countries you remain forever as we just voted out of one, and as many leave voters quite reasonably suggested they did so because the union they joined changed course.

    I was against Scotland leaving the United kingdom but would have a lot of sympathy with them should they hold another and would wish them well on their own.
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