The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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  • The 'I'm Pregnamt' badges on the train certainly help avoid these errors
  • I'm probably going to get shot down for saying this but I don't get it. There are only 2 genders, you are either male or female. It doesn't matter that if you were born a man but feel you should be a woman and vice versa, you are still either a male or a female.
  • Preston

    Apparently, for those affected, it is not that simple.

    Doesn't seem to me to be wrong to listen to what transgender people have to say about their experiences, and how they would like to be treated.
  • edited February 2017
    Gender isn't the same as sex.

    (Is the argument about how these two words are being used. It's about distinguishing 'gender' ie identity - which can be formed from various influences and factors - from sex which is more or less biologically determined.)

    Also, it has become clear that there aren't only 2 sexes. Look up 'intersex'. There are a number of different syndromes where sex is not binary (in the way it is commonly understood).

    And of course, people can be born one and later change to another.

    (I'm ready to be corrected by those who know more about it than me, but that is my understanding based on the reading I've done. Apologies if I've misstated it.)
  • edited February 2017
    Preston, why would you get shot down?

    You'd only get ''shot down'' if you expressed prejudiced or discriminatory views on the topic. ;hmm
  • Should there not be a separate thread for this, as it's not really relevant to the UK soon to be out of the EU is it, unless I've missed a post connecting the two subjects.
  • NE

    It's a spin-off, like happens in many of these kinds of threads. Don't think it really needs its own thread, as it is, imo, unlikely to 'run and run'.
  • Thinking about it, I shouldn't have put the first bit in. I will have a read up on trans genderism.
  • If you like reading fiction, a novel called Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides won the Pulitzer Prize some years ago.

    It is a very good read, not preachy or overly medical. Just quite an engrossing story about several generations of a family in the 1st half of the 20th century.
  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-38827731

    Whilst I have every sympathy with the human in this story, school is a cruel, wicked, unforgiving place if you are different in any way, but apart from the obvious financial benefits, possibly tens of thousands of pounds I assume, what "good" does suing the school do. Highlighting the schools short comings and agitating for a better more inclusive World are one thing, but suing leaves me cold. It is the blame culture and the automatic "right" to financial recompense that gets me. Cases like this are detrimental (in my view), rather than healing wounds and promoting understanding they achieve the exact opposite.

    With view to the earlier discussion, and to save any doubt or confusion, why not "pregnant human" as the catch all phrase.
  • Re the language thing, those of you who have suggested alternative inclusive terms...

    I agree there could be other terms used rather than the selection offered by the Guidance.

    But the point is (and it seems to be one all of us are accepting - or at least nobody has actually challenged it) that trying to choose language that is inclusive and not containing any explicit or implicit derogatory overtones is a good thing. So the actual term isn't really the issue, it seems to me.

    For anybody who didn't read the booklet, there are also other categories covered, such as language to describe people with disabilities, learning difficulties etc. (Which are categories that seem to attract less scorn and ridicule from papers like the Mail and The Sun than do those associated with race and gender. Quelle surprise!)
  • edited February 2017
    Setting legal precedent.
  • Setting legal precedent.
    For future claims???
  • Setting legal precedent.
    For future claims???
    For how schools are legally allowed to treat children. To make clear what constitutes discrimination and is therefore illegal.
  • But according to the article the laws are already in place, the school seems negligent in their interpretation of the law, and I can understand that the school should be held accountable for neglecting its responsibilities, but "suing" (IMO) is wrong. I think that if this is a test case and will be used to set a precedent for the benefit of future pupils then if "damages" are awarded in cases such as this then they should be nominally set at £1.00. That assumes then that the claimant is doing this for the benefit of future generations rather than personal financial gain. The thought of "gender chasers" out there and "genderlawyers4u" makes me a little uncomfortable.
  • edited February 2017

    But according to the article the laws are already in place, the school seems negligent in their interpretation of the law, and I can understand that the school should be held accountable for neglecting its responsibilities, but "suing" (IMO) is wrong.

    But that's the point.

    How do you know if a school has been negligent in their conforming with the law and fulfilling their responsibilities? Until the day they put you in charge of deciding ( ;wink ), a case has to be taken to court to test that.

    Who will do that, unless a 'victim' steps forward.
  • I`m not objecting to the case, I`m objecting to the possibility of large damages being paid. If it is made clear that the damages are set at £1.00 then great. I hate compensation culture. We are money obsessed and it is being seen as a cure all, I`m all for righting wrongs, it just seems to me that a few thousand pounds appears to soften the blow. That is wrong and doesn`t compute in my head.
  • edited February 2017
    But in many cases (not necessarily this one, I don't know) the person/organisation found to be at fault has done something that has caused the victim financial losses. (eg, loss of earning, facing medical or other expenses and so on). Why shouldn't they be compensated? I have no problem with it myself.

    Also, if there is no punitive impact on the offending organisations, they can just carry on ignoring the law. And if they get taken to court and lose, ah well. Never mind.
  • Does it actually even say in the story that they're seeking compensation?
  • edited February 2017
    Not in the article, no.

    But I think under the 2010 Act Part 9 (Enforcement) the tribunals and courts are empowered to award compensation and damages (subject to various criteria and limits).
  • Of all the reasons to remain in the EU none can compete with this reason to leave

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/question-time-woman-banana-is-straight-audience-member-brexit-vote-last-minute-eu-referendum-a7560781.html

    How many more of them had a similar reason ;puzzled
  • None I would guess.
  • Herb you could be right, it would of would've been cucumbers ;biggrin
  • Freedom for the fruitsters ;lol
  • That banana story (an utter lie, but promoted by Boris) is proof that (a) Boris is despicable and (b) we have had out own alternative facts long before the Trump administration.
  • The banana story is an old story, I remember that when I was in my teens.
  • Astonishing how it lives on.

    It has been debunked so many times, but some people still believe it. Even after Boris admitted he made it up.
  • I think the point is being missed here. The point being that some voters were (insert whatever adjective you feel is appropriate) enough to decide the future of the UK on such trivial matters. ;angry
  • edited February 2017
    It is not strictly a lie Mrs G, there is legislation out there that was passed by the EU regarding the size and shape of bananas, but it was for classification, so for marketing purposes people knew what they were buying - Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 of 16 September 1994 laying down quality standards for bananas:-

    The regulation applies to unripened green bananas, and thus to growers and wholesalers rather than retailers.[3] The main provisions of the regulation were that bananas sold as unripened, green bananas should be green and unripened, firm and intact, fit for human consumption, not "affected by rotting", clean, free of pests and damage from pests, free from deformation or abnormal curvature, free from bruising, free of any foreign smell or taste.[1] The minimum size (with tolerances and exceptions) is a length of 14 cm and a thickness (grade) of 2.7 cm. It specifies minimum standards for specific quality classifications of bananas (Extra, Class I, Class II).[1] Only Extra class bananas have to comply fully with the shape specifications. Class II bananas, for instance are permitted to have "defects of shape"; Class I bananas are permitted only "slight defects of shape".[1][4] This is not true, however, of the size specifications; sale of bananas below the minimum size is almost always prohibited (with exceptions only for bananas from a few regions where bananas are traditionally smaller).

    If you don't read all the information and just focus on section underlines it is easy to see why people misinterpreted the regulation. Also at the time, a lot of the bananas imported to the UK came from the West Indies which tended to be smaller and curvier so imports from that area suffered, as importers switched to other countries who grew products that were more in line with the highest classification - it also lead to accusations (from those losing out) of the EU protecting it's own as many of the EU's big agricultural companies had interests in those areas producing the new higher classification fruits.

    The real problem is that there is a lot of legislation and regulations out there from the EU regards fruit and vegetables that is produced for marketing and trade purposes - i.e. when you buy the product badged as Grade A or Class 1 that is what you get (as per the EU regulation), if not you can send it back and have it replaced or pay the costs of the lower grade it actually is (claim back a credit if already paid), which when it gets into the public domain is deliberately misinterpreted (for various reasons) or misunderstood.
  • edited February 2017
    Admeus said:
    "which when it gets into the public domain is deliberately misinterpreted (for various reasons) or misunderstood" -
    by the usual suspects:
    e.g: Sun, Daily Express, Daily Mail among others
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