The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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  • You mean it isn't ............... ;run
  • Mrs Expat!

    MRS EXPAT!
  • I see Reuters and all the of the main financial news outlets are currently full of the 'imminent' (using inverted comma's as that is their 'expert' opinion - not mine) EU financial crisis that could bring it down. There is an emergency meeting on Monday ahead of the EU finance ministers meeting (which excludes certain members - including those affected, and including other EU ministers). The main three topics in order -

    1. The next 110 million Euro bail out for Greece, apparently this could be delayed as they (the EU - specifically Germany) want the private investors to take on more of the debt or roll over what they already have. Seems like there are lots of variations on what it might be but the private investors are not happy to do this, and the EU central banks (and the countries who fund it and the bail out funds) are not happy to put more money in either wanting the private financiers to put in more.


    2. The Current Italy situation: Due to the political situation and also the run on the Italian Assets and in particular the run on the Banks, there is a fear that the Italian economy will go bust in a quick time. It is estimated that if this happens they will need upwards of 600 million Euro's in bail out.

    3. Spain; There is also concern that even though they have taken measure to keep control on their economy and debt, it is also under heavy pressure and is close to collapse, which could trigger a 300 million Euro bails out.

    If all three of these come to fruition, that meant there is a need for over 1,000 million Euro's in bail outs. The current EU central fund sits at 480 million, so there is a massive shortfall, so the whole EU project is at risk - again the 'experts' seem to think if this happens there will be a backlash from the populations of the richer nations who will not want to further fund the 'rescue' packages at their expense, the only resolution will be to 'allow' the affected nations to part way with the Euro and take back full control of their finances with their own currencies - sort of reverting things to how they were pre-Euro.

    Interestingly, I also came across other articles predicting another potential 'Global' financial crisis (from a general google search), a couple specifically pointed to Europe as the starting point and naming Italy as a significant start of a European domino effect, but the UK would be better protected because the people currently in charge of policy at the Bank of England had understood better what was going on and what was needed, so had insisted they had bigger buffers in place etc.

    The French finance minister was recently in the news almost purring at the fact that all the Banks etc.in the City of London had carried out their due diligence to move to Paris. However, the response from the City was they had done their due diligence to open satellite offices in Paris to do 'some of our business' if we need to. All of the above is one of the main reasons the French/Germans want to encourage the banks to move all their business to Paris/Frankfurt because of all the tax revenue it would generate that would be used to support the EU finances and grand EU project - something they have steadfastly refused to do in the past, so the EU are trying to force them due to the leave vote via new trade agreements - mind you some of these plans go back to 2010 when the EU decided it wanted to curtail the Cities influence on the EU Finance Services.

    I have found this website http://openeurope.org.uk/ quite informative on most issues and they have quite good in depth analysis and conversation on topics without the general UK media (and some EU Media) hysteria.
  • But Onme, surely we're far better off in ... you just don't understand ;wink
  • Dodger58,

    Debatable ;wink

    The actual point really was in or out, if they are right (the 'experts' in the articles above) everybody is in for harder times in the not too distant.., the influence of this on the leave negotiations could be significant as our trade with certain members of the EU is significant to their economic success/stability, so if the pressure continues to build, despite what the EU Commissioners and Bureaucrats want in the way of transition and final trade deals, it could all be tempered and directed by some of the more pragmatic requirements of some of the more influential EU members.

    Note! Ken Livingstone has gone on record today on the AM show saying that despite all the amendments and 'red lines' that the Labour party (and Lib Dems/others might want), it was generally understood at the highest level in Labour that there would probably be no pre-conditions or agreements to the negotiations and it would be messy and hard - because of the EU stance.

    So essentially all the legal stuff and the debate/amendments around any acts or bill in parliament going on currently are empty gestures and window dressing as in the great scheme they mean nothing.
  • At cabinet meeting following row over her leather trousers, a defiant Theresa May tells ministers they better shape up.

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  • Olivia Newton John. That brought back some youthful memories ;phew

    After reading this mornings news, I don`t know what will collapse first. Our education system or our health service. Life has been reduced to a balance sheet. The ideas of service and the common good are disappearing before our very eyes.
  • The problem is that every one wants more money from the Government or for the Government to do more (which means the same) - problem is that the purse is not bottomless, it has to be filled. We can't keep on borrowing so the only answer is to put up taxes or create new ones and people will be unhappy about that.

    The Gov't recently mooted giving local councils authority to raise council tax by an additional 6% for social care. Problem with that is in areas around where I live there are a lot of pensioners (some of who receive social care themselves) who due to their low incomes pay little or no Council tax already so the money that increase brings from those who will pay it is nowhere near enough to make a difference.

    Over successive years the have been reductions is taxes and increases in allowances before tax is paid, which has resulted in tinkerings in other areas to balance the tax income to the Gov't and the expenditure of that income (increase in retirement age, scrapping of certain tax deductible benefits, cuts to spending budgets etc.) which have mainly hit those who could least afford it.

    There is a solution (won't go into detail as it is too long and tedious) but the Gov't nor any of the other parties have either the spine or the whatsits to actually bite the bullet and do it.
  • Olivia Newton John. That brought back some youthful memories ;phew

    After reading this mornings news, I don`t know what will collapse first. Our education system or our health service. Life has been reduced to a balance sheet. The ideas of service and the common good are disappearing before our very eyes.

    as you know it's called neo-Liberalism, and it's everywhere in small, middling and large doses. When you hear of a company that has moved to an organization where business services are within the company that's neoliberalism - mild but definite. Neoliberalism also means companies will give less to chariatble causes and people more (but it wont be enough)

  • AdMeus - we could always try collecting the tax we're actually due rather than allowing large corporations like Google, Amazon, Vodaphone and Starbucks to get away with paying tiny amounts on their massive profits.

    We're the fifth biggest economy in the world, 3.52% of the world's total GDP, anyone saying we can't afford to care for our elderly or to properly fund the NHS is lying.
  • billy/aslef ;ok
  • BBB - that's part of the solution, re-aligning the spending, although there will be a lot of gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands by those losing out and as I say, no Gov't formed from any of the current lot have the wherewithal or spine to do it.

    Aslef - unfortunately even if they did pay what they owe and continued to do so, you are talking hundreds of millions, the people who want more are talking in the Billions so the gap will not be breached.
  • edited December 2016
    Admeus. We now live in a World where we are talking billionaires, not millionaires, and they parade their wealth in ever more ostentatious ways. There has to be something seriously wrong when a tiny number of people are allowed to amass billions upon billions and are able to "pull the strings" behind the scenes on the World stage. The money and resources are there, they always have been, but as you say no government (seemingly anywhere) has the guts to really address the issues of inequality and instead continue to squeeze the rest of us harder and harder. Our morals, ethics, whatever you want to call them, in The Western World are so skewed, so out of kilter, that I honestly think that it can only end in one way, and that is in violence and bloodshed. I CANNOT believe that we are talking about shortfalls in funding for health and education, we really are going backwards. We seem to place more value on luxury yachts, smart phones and gold plated cars than we do on the basic needs of humanity. We have been well and truly brainwashed into into thinking that materialistic consumerism, the latest this and that, are the true markers of human progress whilst we close hospital wards and allow our kids education to be ruined. The gap could be breached in the blink of an eye if we had a different set of priorities. BBB, I may well join you at the gunshop.
  • AdMeus - according to HMRC's own estimates in 2013/14 they lost £34bn to illegal tax fraud and legal tax evasion although there are those that suspect that as its HMRC's job to prevent this they deliberately underestimate the problem with some estimating the loss as anything up to £122bn.

    The NHS annual budget for 2015/16 was £116.4bn
  • Aslef. I thought it was all the fault of social security scroungers, chavs and immigrants. Divide and rule.
  • Madcaps .............. sent you a PM
  • Madcap - benefit fraud was estimated as £1.2bn. Squirrel!
  • Expat, I think I have replied ;puzzled
  • Indeed you have my man ;thumbsup
  • Our morals, ethics, whatever you want to call them, in The Western World are so skewed, so out of kilter, that I honestly think that it can only end in one way, and that is in violence and bloodshed.

    Whilst I can agree with the overall sentiment, please don't think this is just the case in the "Western World" - whilst there are many things many people would like to see changed, you only have to look at almost anywhere outside the UK to realise how lucky we are.

    There are a few Billionaires and Multi-millionaires in India, China, Africa, Arabia, South America ... I think you get my drift ...
  • ;ok fair point, and I agree fully, as I`ve said before, I can`t think of anywhere I`d rather live than here. I think this idea of consumerism/growth (at any cost) has spread from the West (Europe and America) and is "infecting" the rest of The World. It is a greed culture, a get rich quick mentality with little thought for the social or environmental consequences. All this money sloshing around could be doing some good, but it`s not. I just can`t see that it is sustainable and the bubble will burst, I just fear that things may turn really bad. I am hoping (deluded I know) that out of Europe we can attempt, at least, to get our own house in order. Try something a bit different.
  • Agreed Madcap, the 'growth' mantra of the western world is the issue ...
  • Madcap - somehow I don't think Boris, Gove and Farage wanted the UK out of Europe so they could dispense generosity to the masses.....
  • I don't think Boris wanted us out full stop.
  • I don't think Boris knows what he wants on most things......

    .......apart from as much attention from the media as he can get
  • Aslef, I`m hoping that Boris, Gove and Farage will be mere temporary aberrations and one day, in the not too distant, we may have a form of government/system that truly represents the people. As I say, deluded, maybe.
  • TML - I know what you mean, I work for a Company with that mentality. The trouble is, it is a global organisation that in a lot of areas is top heavy with senior roles who's only job is some sort of 'management' function (or as we call them, non-fee earners). In Feb we were told there would be no further appointments at that level unless it was as replacements for people leaving there have been 17 since and only 3 due to people leaving.

    It seems these peoples only function is to come up with more ideas of how the Company can 'Grow' which includes making us provide sales leads - which has not been the roaring success they thought it would, we normally spend the first hour or so of visits listening to all the issues with the back office (which we report but they seem unable to do anything about) functions.

    The problem is they keep employing these people then ramping up the pressure on the fee earners (those at my level and below and the one or two levels to a lesser degree above mine) because profits and income are down despite growth targets being achieved - given that the additional numbers of senior managers roles is costing us over £1 million in the UK alone, if this has been replicated globally it is not hard to work out why that is happening.

    All the senior board and all the others down to Country level communicate to us is information about growth targets, turnover, expenditure, profit, budgets etc., etc. - nothing about the real running of the Company or improvements of service delivery to address the Client issues etc. it is almost as if they have abdicated that responsibility to each individual Country and are only interested in how much we contribute to the Company coffers which they get their extortionate wages and performance (whatever that may be) bonuses from. The thought of taking a bit less and investing a bit more on the front line, which would bring better customer satisfaction and probably more work from them on that basis, does not seem to occur to them.

    when I suggested rather than growth, maybe we should pursue a policy of stabilisation and business improvement for a while then look at growth in a couple of years, I was told I knew nothing about business and leave it to the experts - which considering the job I am employed to do (I actually Client Manage and audit Business Management Systems) shows the people running things have lost touch.

    Aslef - even if all that money was collected, given the UK Spending (around £740 Billion for 2016 and almost £785 Billion for 2017) and all those clamouring for more it would not go that far. The whole Gov't spending structure needs to be reviewed and re-prioritised and some have to accept what they are given as there is no endless supply. Despite what many believe, we can't keep borrowing for today leaving future generations to foot the bill - that is the true failure of the current generation in charge (sort of fits in the TML's views), we have to live within our means and those with the most (although some already do through charitable donations and work) should pay more and look at realistically what they need to live on.
  • BBB, unfortunately, I don`t feel we need a political class to rule over us. They are ordinary people (at best) like you or I, they have no special expertise or talent other than choosing a career in politics. If you accept the premise that democracy, as currently practised, can and does lead to the probability of monsters, as in Hitler, or dangerous people such as Putin or Trump, then perhaps a different type of democracy is required. The more "local" all modes of production and modes of social intercourse are kept, the more accountable those that "control" the flow of goods and services are. Real power can be kept manageable without the need for large, grandiose, overarching political systems. Decisions and agreements that currently take years in regards to housing, transport, power, manufacturing etc etc are often hindered by the very "departments" that are meant to oversee their smooth running. Decisions are also taken at national and international level that run contra to what may actually benefit ordinary local people. In fact these decisions are often taken to benefit an elite few. I do agree though that some views are so morally/ethically repugnant that they deserve no representation at all.
    Admeus, technology applied to produce more, to increase humanities choices and maximise its riches should and could be a desirable thing, if the riches and rewards were shared equally, used to enrich us all, and not at the planets expense. But those that control the means are keeping the vast majority of the spoils for themselves. No-one has the "right" to "more". The very fact that you point to charity, and there are people like Bill Gates and his philanthropic organisations doing on the face of it wonderful work, highlights to me that there is a huge imbalance in our system that needs addressing. But, to me, this imbalance is so drastic, (and the gap is widening as I type), that small reforms, from governments of any persuasion, are nothing more than temporary appeasements. I honestly think that if we continue on our current path, and things get worse before they get better, then in the short to medium term things could "turn nasty". This is why I think that we need radical solutions, wholesale shifts in our political and economic systems rather than reforms.
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