The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

TheMadcapLaughs

billybondsbeard said:

Love this post from BB - the Mail is a comic..........
https://www.facebook.com/billybraggofficial/photos/a.249499147470.158205.44905697470/10153884943752471/?type=3

Sorry, but Billy Bragg has his facts wrong, that chap was Spanish. He from Barcelona.

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

I wouldn't trust most of the plebs I grew up with with my pint while I went to the loo.

Not sure why you think I should trust them to inform themselves well enough to make complex decisions about national issues.

Possibly some did, but I'd be more sure that many of them didn't, and won't, and will trust whatever narrow world view-supporting nonsense they are spoon-fed by the right wing meejah and the impeccable source which is 'my mate reckons'.

And if you imagine they will be with you at the barricades come the revolution, I fear you may be disappointed.

thornburyiron

So Grey why can't you trust people who voted leave but you believe everyone who voted remain is the most informed and intelligent person on the planet.
The EU is falling apart but I understand why you, living in Greece, would be happy for the UK to stay and keep pumping in money to bail you out. If all the countries in the EU were treated as equals it wouldn't be so bad but they're not. Greece is a basket case and Italy, Spain and a few others are not far behind.

MrsGrey

On the subject of Greece, you are obviously not aware that the UK hasn't contributed to ANY of the EU bailouts for Greece. And would not in future even if they stayed in the EU.

So if you voted leave on that basis, I'm afraid you were voting on the basis of misinformation.

I wonder how that could have happened?


Edit, I wonder if the 3 people who agreed with your comment are also labouring under the delusion that the UK is, though the EU, bailing out Greece.

That sort of thing doesn't really do anything to disabuse me of my belief that many voters in the referendum made decisions based on false info put out by the press.

TheMadcapLaughs

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

I wouldn't trust most of the plebs I grew up with with my pint while I went to the loo.

Not sure why you think I should trust them to inform themselves well enough to make complex decisions about national issues.

Possibly some did, but I'd be more sure that many of them didn't, and won't, and will trust whatever narrow world view-supporting nonsense they are spoon-fed by the right wing meejah and the impeccable source which is 'my mate reckons'.

And if you imagine they will be with you at the barricades come the revolution, I fear you may be disappointed.

Grey, you are missing the point. Who would you let vote then. Public school only, whites, certainly not retards. Women? Do you think you had the right to vote from Greece on UK matters? Should Tony Blair decide, Boris Johnson? Should 16 year olds, who can marry and pay tax, be allowed to vote? What about deaf mute people? What about Keith Vaz, would you trust him to vote?? Would you trust him with your grandson?? Who becomes this "Grand Arbiter" of suitability. In fact why bother with democracy at all?? Why not have a TV quiz where everyone can log on, answer the questions, and the winner becomes leader. Is Donald Trump clever enough to vote??
As soon as you question "eligibility" you may as well give up on any idea of democracy at all. It sets such a dangerous precedent, the liberal left in the "meejah" (as you put it) are no better than The White Supremacists who they would so gleefully sneer at. Just thought of another, what about Downs Syndrome people? Surely not.
And as for the revolution and manning the barricades, if Katy Perry was true to her word, I`d be there, if not, I`d rather be watching "I`m A Celebrity" with a nice cup of tea.
For people like Blair to be questioning "populist" views is the biggest insult of all. The bloke is a mass murderer, but (to some) obviously carries a lot more credence than Fred down the pub who grew up on a council estate, had a poor inner city education, does nothing more controversial than work hard to support his family, but "struggles" to grasp the complexities of the next G8 summit.
The left wing luvvies in the media are talking about humanity regressing 50 years in terms of the progress we have made as regards to womens rights, human rights, multiculturalism etc etc because of the Brexit vote and the Trump vote, yet seem more than happy to take us back 200+ years in terms of universal suffrage.
What on Gods earth gives anyone the right to judge another human being in terms of "eligibility" to vote. I wouldn`t let Fred down the pub perform open heart surgery on me, but I would defend his right to vote against anybody that challenged it.
For hundreds of years "normal" people have fought for their right to vote, have died in the trenches to protect "democracy" , and yet the same men who fought and died at The Somme may have been "too thick" to vote. Good enough to die for their country, but "too thick" to have a say in its future! Unbelievable.

thornburyiron

Remaining in the EU is an easy cop out for most politicians because they can then abdicate any decision making to Brussels. It's easy to say we'd like to do this or that but the EU won't let us.
They say we wouldn't have any human rights laws, equality, workers rights etc without the EU but why. Our parliament should be capable of passing laws which cover all of these and did pass laws before we joined the EU. If they're not then they shouldn't be there.

grey_til_I_dye

Thorn

but you believe everyone who voted remain is the most informed and intelligent person on the planet.

No I don't. I've never said that, or done anything to suggest I believe such a thing.

If you're only interested in making stuff up, I suggest you write a novel.

Madcap

You've imputed so many things to my comment that I never intended, it's probably not worth the bother of replying, since you will presumably choose to read into this what you choose, but hey-ho.

This is a thread about the referendum. My comment referred to the referendum, and made no implication about which side of the vote the 'plebs' might be on.

I said nothing abut eligibility to, or removal of, the right to vote.

Nothing.

So your replies have nothing to do with me, or, I suspect, with anyone.

How about dialling down the grandstanding rhetoric and actually discussing what is said?

Yeoldhammer

I hope we aren't paying Nissan to stay in the UK ;lol

Kick to the establishment to only feed the establishment more to keep them around.

Honestly I think Brexit will turn out to be a hypocrisy, I can see the so called "establishment" wielding more power by the end of the 2 year deal.

TheMadcapLaughs

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

I wouldn't trust most of the plebs I grew up with with my pint while I went to the loo.

Not sure why you think I should trust them to inform themselves well enough to make complex decisions about national issues.

Possibly some did, but I'd be more sure that many of them didn't, and won't, and will trust whatever narrow world view-supporting nonsense they are spoon-fed by the right wing meejah and the impeccable source which is 'my mate reckons'.

And if you imagine they will be with you at the barricades come the revolution, I fear you may be disappointed.

I obviously failed to understand the first two lines of the above then. I think the suggestion is fairly implicit, but I am obviously wrong.
The eligibility issue as regards to voting on "complex issues" has been brought up time and again by remainers, so I think my points are perfectly justified.
I think I have answered the points made and been on topic.
Short enough?

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

I have no idea if your points are justified in terms of others (though I have my doubts), I was simply pointing out they are not justified with regard to me, and I was the one you referenced in your post.

Suit yourself whether you believe me or not.

thornburyiron

Grey I inferred from your comment that you don't trust most people who voted leave because they aren't capable of making themselves informed enough to make a proper decision that you do trust those who voted remain.
Mrs G as regards paying in separately to bail out Greece, no we didn't make an additional payment and I think most if not all people who voted leave knew that but we contribute vast amounts to the EU and most of that isn't for our benefit. If and when we are out then that money has to be made up from somewhere so the contributions will increase for the other members.
Remainers just dont seem to get why people voted leave.

grey_til_I_dye

Thorn

That inference comes from you, not what I said. I didn't say anything about what side of the argument they might be on, and didn't intend one to be read.

I have never suggested that every Leave voter was stupid or racist, but I would suggest that every stupid racist who voted, voted for Leave, and you'd have to wonder why that is.

I said before the vote was taken that I was against the idea of a referendum for such a complex and emotive issue.

I don't think the majority of those voting, either way, had the opportunity to be properly informed, if that was even possible in the maelstrom of misinformation that was flying about and which is still being propagated.

As to your comment:

Remainers just dont seem to get why people voted leave.

that would imply that all Leavers shared the same reasons, something I don't believe for a second.

TheMadcapLaughs

Sorry, Grey, I have and did attribute those views to yourself, incorrectly. So I apologise.
I have no idea what Brendan O Neill stands for, but for me that article hits the nail on the head.
And, like him, I find the views expressed on behalf of the backlash to Trump and Brexit are far more dangerous than the results themselves.
I would normally stand against Farage and Trump and would be arguing from the same side of the fence as most on here, including NE ;biggrin , but the "liberal elite" cannot ignore the "populist" view forever, although Blair seems determined to fight against the "populist" view as if nothing has happened. However unpalatable some of these views are, they are genuine, heartfelt concerns. I am lucky, I have never needed a food bank and never been made homeless. The referendum for so many people was one chance to express their dissatisfaction. Someone living on the edge, on benefits, relying on the good humour of their landlord and the charity of the local food bank (can`t believe we have food banks in the 21st century) couldn`t give a monkies about exchange rates and trade deals, they just want to be listened to. Some of the "elite" are now suggesting that the one thing they have left, a voice, a vote, may also be taken away. I honestly, genuinely, think that is scandalous and it really, really does get me angry ;devil so apologies if some of that anger has spilled over onto here. What makes it worse is that the only other thing worth talking about on here, West Ham, is currently not really worth talking about. So a half hearted COYI and lets beat the Gooners. ;scarf
I don`t really think that is going to happen.

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Someone living on the edge, on benefits, relying on the good humour of their landlord and the charity of the local food bank (can`t believe we have food banks in the 21st century) couldn`t give a monkies about exchange rates and trade deals, they just want to be listened to.

So are you are saying that, in your opinion, they voted without any concern for or consideration of the possible impact of Brexit on the economy and future trading (and hence on food prices, inflation, the budget deficit, and so on)?

And do you think (if that is what you think?) that these people who used the vote as a way to give 'authority' a punch on the nose, all voted Leave? Or do you think some of them voted Remain? ;hmm

Finally, with reference to your comment in the previous post

Some of the "elite" are now suggesting that the one thing they have left, a voice, a vote, may also be taken away.

and allowing for voice=vote, who is suggesting it be taken away? I haven't seen that anywhere.

MrsGrey

grey_til_I_dye said:

As to your comment:

Remainers just dont seem to get why people voted leave.

that would imply that all Leavers shared the same reasons, something I don't believe for a second.

^^^^^
THIS



;wahoo the pointy uppy thing works

TheMadcapLaughs

Imo they would have voted to change the status quo. No one knows what the economic impact of brexit will be as it hasn't happened yet. But years and years of the same policies, with more of the same to follow, would have equated to more years of deprivation. In their position what else can you do but vote for change. With change comes hope, the hope maybe Ill founded, who knows, but at least there maybe hope. At rock bottom you have nothing to lose. Brexit and trump are offering alternatives.

MrsGrey

For Madcap

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs g. Read the Brendan o Neill link. Also people on here have questioned people's reasons for voting and their very right to vote given their views. It is a fact that the question has been raised on universal suitability in regards to voting rights. I don't care if people vote because they like Boris Johnson s hair or they think that the price of beer will fall within the eu, everyone has their reasons and each are equally important to that person. I personally don't believe in central government, but that is a moot point, the lack of respect for our system of democracy because results have been contra to long held norms is scary and the lengths that the establishment are willing to go to maintain the status quo is frustrating. There is a perceived kick against the establishment and I welcome that, but it may have been unintentional from a purely anarchic perspective. Giving authority a punch on the nose is never a bad thing, it's what gives us progress in the true sense of the word.

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Brexit and trump are offering alternatives.

You see, for me, those alternatives arnever at a price never worth paying, regardless of whether or not I think they are viable alternatives.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs g I agree they are not alternatives, I have said that whatever choices we are given are normally two sides of the same coin. The choice between trump and Clinton is no choice at all. The choice between remain and brexit is probably in all reality no choice at all given the conservative nature of the world/country we live in. But being out of Europe gives us a chance at doing things differently that otherwise we would never have within Europe. I am being extremely optimistic in my outlook here, I am hoping that we can show the world that there is a different way of doing things. Teresa may has at least acknowledged that there are problems and I'm hoping that the beastly politicians may at last come to their senses and work for the good of all. After the second world war there was a concerted effort to address inequality, we have lost our way in recent years but I'm hoping we in the UK can get back a bit of that social awareness. The eu despite some noble gestures is too big to address local issues. Centralisation fails under whatever guise.

Hammerex

My Dad always said, never argue about politics, or religion, and i think he was
right. lets stick to Football, much more interesting.
coyi

TheMadcapLaughs

Thanks for the tune Mrs G, unfortunately I haven`t got speakers on my computer. Yes I`m a Luddite. My mobile also still has buttons and no touchscreen. Hammerex, your Dad was a wise man.

AdMeus_CaputFilius

IM44,

Regarding your comments about the construction industry and Eastern European workers - I too work extensively in the Construction Industry and can say I have seen the same thing. Even to the extent that some of them have 'questionable' qualifications and experience, I have actually raise sanctions on some sites as it was clear that the workers did not understand the information that had been given to them (as they did not understand either verbal or written English or the language provided by interpretation - as supplied and paid for by the Company based on the information provided by agencies), but this also includes some from Asian countries.

This includes some where I have witnessed the person being inducted being told which box of the multiple choice questions to tick (so I had the interpreter and the agency supervisor taken off site as well), and also where it was clear, one operative who was trained and skilled instructing his unskilled/unqualified friend what to do - who was supposedly to have had five years experience.

However, my opinion is that the industry has bought it on itself, rather than maintain a well trained pool of UK professionals and bringing in new blood to keep it, supplemented with overseas workers where needed, they decided to save themselves all those training costs (not to mention redundancy payments or retention costs when time were lean) and just hire in from the overseas agencies, getting workers already qualified at a lower costs (wage) - so basically they let greed get the better of them.

MrsGrey

The Suprem Court is in the 2nd day of hearing the Govt. appeal against the previous high court ruling that Article 50 can't be triggered without a parliamentary vote.

Some of the legal stuff is a bit ;puzzled for a non-specialist, but I am finding it very interesting.

Not least this, which is what the then govt Minister for Europe said in the House of Commons. (he was referring to a request to amend the bill to specify various % etc)



So whatever they printed on their leaflets, the govt knew, and Parliament knew, that the referendum vote was not binding by law. Even if the govt said they would act as if it was. It has only advisory status. As has been pointed out many times.

PrestonHammer

I think politicians are between a rock and a hard place. The government never thought in a million years that the majority would vote to leave. Now that they have they have, they have a choice between leaving the EU and not knowing what the future will be or deciding not to follow through with the wishes of half the people who voted and risk people not bothering to vote again because politicians can't be trusted.

NEoldiron

MrsGrey, I'm afraid you're banging your head against a brick wall.
The country is being railroaded into a situation that has its source in party politics ie. Cameron trying to appease his anti-EU MPs.
The country took the chance to give politicians a kicking heedless of the consequences that will soon be upon us and regardless that it's not the EU that deserves the anger, but the UK government - the EU was just a convenient target.

Expat_Hammer

NEoldiron said:

The country took the chance to give politicians a kicking heedless of the consequences that will soon be upon us and regardless that it's not the EU that deserves the anger, but the UK government - the EU was just a convenient target.

Oh, so now it's all about kicking the politicians is it. Of course it is, nobody who voted "Leave" ever thought of anything else did they. No, we're all thicko bigots*, as has been said on here before about leave votors.

NE, please try to comprehend the possibility that people actually wanted to leave the EU rather than upset the politicians. Can you not accept that people genuinely want to leave the EU for their own valid reasons rather than merely taking the opportunity to knock them damned politicians. That they actually thought about what may happen before voting.

* Racist and Xenophobic options were available during our BOGOF offer which unfortunately ended on the 3rd December

claretandbluesky

That NEold is about as succinctly as it can be put. Tory party politics created this mess by calling a referendum on a subject not fit for referendum, parts of the nation have genuine grievance with how things are at present and chose to kick when invited, the Tory party had once again caused these problems with misdirected austerity measures and yet the EU got kicked for it, and now the Tory party seek to survive at all costs through brexit means brexit. In my view the Tory party has been worse for this country since Margaret Thatcher onwards than the EU has ever been.

MrsGrey

My own view is that people voted to leave (and remain for that matter) for different reasons, and it's not possible to ascribe the same motives/grounds to all (on either side).

Expat, I have sympathy that since the beginning of this whole process, you feel you are being lumped in with others whose views and motives you don't share.


Nevertheless, some who voted leave are bigots and racists. I don't see any point if trying to pretend that isn't the case. I also don't think it is possible to deny - since many who were interviewed publicly during and after the referendum were explicit about it - that some voted leave for no other reason than to put 2 fingers up at 'the establishment' as they saw it.

Expat_Hammer

Mrs G, I both accept and respect all of the points you have made above.

The fact that you have made them in an eloquent manner totally acceptable to me is greatly appreciated ;hug

and I shall of course refresh your ;redwine in the BA at your leisure
............... but only 1 mind, I know what you're like once you get started ;lol