The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

MrsGrey

NE, I think it is interesting in that opinion piece you linked to, in amongst all the examples of racist attacks, is this statistic: Polling shows, for example, that 77% of leave voters believe EU migrants already living here should remain.

That's a big number, and bears out my opinion above, which I could probably paraphrase as Not all Leavers are racist but all racists are Leavers.

I don't think it helps the debate not to acknowledge that.

MrsGrey

Expat_Hammer said:

and I shall of course refresh your ;redwine in the BA at your leisure
............... but only 1 mind, I know what you're like once you get started ;lol

Too late, mate ;lol

;redwine ;redwine

Expat_Hammer

Just as well I got paid then ;weep

but ......................... don't tell Suze I've topped you up ;run

;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine

;biggrin

grey_til_I_dye

Expat

I'm not sure any post on here has suggested that all leave voters were racist/bigoted/unintelligent/ill-informed.

From interviews and reactions, however, it is clear that some at least are.

I don't think it is useful for people on either side of the debate to issue 'all you lot' comments, or to ascribe their own motivations to the majority of those who voted in the same way.

Expat_Hammer

Well you're not getting a ;redwine then .................... ;lol

grey_til_I_dye

Luckily, I have ;beer ;biggrin

MrsGrey

Up until the point where I hid it. ;run

claretandbluesky

Things starting to clarify a little as TM appears to recognise she is not winning the legal argument taking place at present and agrees to offer an outline plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38224169

The EU make clear their negotiation position, that membership comes with benefits and it is not possible to retain those benefits without membership. This means one way or another you pay for the privilege of trade, through membership or lump sums and acknowledgments. I think it is clear that TM does not need push for a hard brexit as she will get one from the EU anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38221140

If this was a poker game I know whose hand I would like to have.

It will be strange to watch this play out as very few deals end in a lose lose situation, most result in at least one party winning or both, at present however this looks likely to be a lose lose, if so it will demonstrate the power of politics for you and how not to take it lightly........... looking at you David Cameron.

PrestonHammer

I blame the MP's as well. They voted 6-1 in favour of having a referendum. If they thought for one second that Leave would win, I don't think they would have voted for the referendum full stop.

claretandbluesky

Totally agree Preston - not one, even those wanting to leave at the time would have imagined in their wildest dreams that leave would win.

Swissiron

Rule by referendum and rule by parliamentary government are not compatible, that's what everything is about.......


............It's also why we can't find a fit 20+ goal a season striker, so there you have it....

claretandbluesky

Interesting angle regarding exactly what the line about falling back to WTO rules entails.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie

simonc

MrsGrey said:

Not all Leavers are racist but all racists are Leavers.

I don't think it helps the debate not to acknowledge that.

This is the sort of statement that is driving a wedge right through Europe and the USA - for starters racists come in all colors and nationalities, people on both sides hold bigoted and or racist views so no i for one do not accept that "ONLY" out votors are racist

grey_til_I_dye

I can't think why someone with stated racist views would choose to remain in the EU, especially given the focus on immigration control in the run-up to the vote.

TheMadcapLaughs

The phrase "not all that voted leave are racists but all racists voted leave" is an overstatemnt. There are out and out racists and far right groups who to a man probably voted leave, they may well be covered in tattoos, have shaven heads and wear bovver boots. They are open and plain in their views. However, there are plenty of Tristans, Jeremies and Charlies who work in the city, there are plenty of Mabels and Margarets who do sterling work for the church, there are loads of Anabelles, Camillas, and Henriettas, ladies who lunch but do little else, and amongst these fine upstanding people, many would have voted Remain, but amongst them there will be racists. They may not spit and snarl and hurl abuse, but they will gossip about the "dark" people who have moved onto "the close", chatter about the new "ethnic" shop selling funny smelling foods on the high street and titter at the "funny accents" now prevalent in Toby`s new school. There will be racists who voted both ways. Not all racists voted leave, plenty of twin set and pearl racists would have voted remain.
C&B, I agree with you regarding The Tory party and our history since Thatcher, but austerity isn`t a UK problem/phenomenon, its a "western world" liberal free market/capitalist phenomena. Austerity and The EU go hand in hand. Countries within the western world are rejecting austerity and globalisation and looking inwards for answers. This would generally be considered to be a regressive/reactionary step, but one that in the present circumstances is perfectly understandable. People are basically saying to the politicians "sort whats on your own doorstep first". Not unreasonable really. THE EU and its core fundamental ideologies have caused this economic and social collapse and people across Europe are rejecting both the ideology and the resultant austerity measures. Austerity is not a UK problem, its a "western world" problem, and people, within their own democratic countries (when given the chance) are voting for an alternative, its very hard to vote out unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The EU is nothing more or less than an economic/social experiment, sometimes experiments go wrong, the politicians within The EU have steadfastly refused to acknowledge or accept when things have/are going wrong and have/are ploughing on regardless with the blinkers on and their fingers in their ears. The EU will shake itself to pieces and we will hopefully be well clear when it happens.

MrsGrey

However, there are plenty of Tristans, Jeremies and Charlies who work in the city, there are plenty of Mabels and Margarets who do sterling work for the church, there are loads of Anabelles, Camillas, and Henriettas, ladies who lunch but do little else,

Interesting social stereotyping there, not to mention a fair bit of gender stereotyping too ;hmm

NEoldiron

Able Seaman Remain (Lookout) - "Captain,Captain, there's an iceberg ahead"
Captain May- "Never you mind son, it'll move over for us. We're on the SS UK, unsinkable, don't you know"
AB Remain - "Captain, please"
Captain May - "Don't worry, stay calm, besides what would I tell the passengers if we changed course just for a silly iceberg"
;weep

MrsGrey

Madcap, austerity isn't a problem, it's a solution that was chosen (by some governments) to a perceived problem (of a budget deficit).

The budget deficit 'crisis' was a consequence of the global financial collapse.

The EU didn't cause the 'problem'. Nor did it require that member states choose the austerity solution.

That choice was purely down to the ideology (as reflected in their economic policy) of the elected governments in each case ... and the buck ultimately stops at the electorate for voting for those policies.

If people wanted to vote for an alternative, they shouldn't have elected the Tory government. Twice. With a bigger majority the 2nd time.

If the EU was the cause of austerity, then leaving it would end austerity. Yeah, right.

claretandbluesky

Housing problems due to Thatcher selling of council houses and not replacing them, dismantling industry which whole communities relied upon without replacing them and austerity budgets reducing services at a time the services needed supporting and building due to immigration, all of these were pressures upon communities that had built and contributed quite heavily in my opinion to leave areas rejecting the EU but had only their roots in Tory decisions and policy, the EU had not any hand in this. They could be seen as advocators of austerity as they had insisted upon it in countries they had bailed out, but here in the UK it was all all our own work. As Mrs Grey points out we had a chance to vote them out but gave them a bigger majority instead and they are somehow having the working class behind them now cheering old TM on as the deliverer of their brexit. Not even Paul Daniels could have pulled that trick off.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mr & Mrs G. A simple question. Are you saying that absolutely no racists voted for Remain?

Mrs G. The ideas of Western society, The EU being a big part of that, have caused the economic turmoil and the austerity it has engendered. The ideas of the free market and free movement have trampled over (and at the expense of) any other prevailing ideology valid or not. The EU has been a vast economic and social experiment which has led us and the rest of Europe to the edge of an abyss. I would say absolutely categorically that the mess that we are now faced with is due in large part to the blinkered approach of The EU. It has failed miserably to listen to peoples concerns for years and ploughed its own ideological furrow without ever stopping and thinking. This is why we are where we are at now, and not just in this country. If the EU is such a roaring success why are so many people disenchanted. This is not just a UK problem , it is Europe wide. The EU as it currently stands will disintegrate.

NE. Have you thought just for one moment that the iceberg you talk of may be The EU.

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

We can't know what is in people's hearts.

I'm saying that I can't think how anyone with openly racist views could vote for anything other than Leave.

It's not really that important anyway, since no one is saying that 'Leavers are racist', so it's a bit of a sideline.

TheMadcapLaughs

C&B. The EU is at the forefront of the free market liberal ideas that appear to have been so damaging. I concur fully with your appraisal of post Thatcherite Britain, but as members of The EU we have embraced this ideology whole heartedly, this push for globalisation, privatisation, free market economics has been at the forefront of The EU`s plan and we have been sucked along.
At one time I thought that the ideals of The EU were great, but as The EU has got bigger and bigger, as its powers have become more centralised, as its "one size fits all" policies have trampled over alternate ideas and vulnerable Europeans, I have become increasingly frustrated. The EU should serve its people, but its people are revolting, it is no coincidence that the people most vociferous in support of The EU, big business and big money, are the ones most vocal in saving The EU as it currently stands. If nothing else that tells me that The EU is looking after the wrong people.

TheMadcapLaughs

MrsGrey said:

However, there are plenty of Tristans, Jeremies and Charlies who work in the city, there are plenty of Mabels and Margarets who do sterling work for the church, there are loads of Anabelles, Camillas, and Henriettas, ladies who lunch but do little else,

Interesting social stereotyping there, not to mention a fair bit of gender stereotyping too ;hmm

It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist. Some of the most racist, selfish, small minded, unchristian people I have ever met would be considered (under popular norms) to be "decent" people. An old neighbour of ours "did wonderful work for the church" but I think on passing she will be decidedly disappointed at the pearly gates if God has anything about him at all.

MrsGrey

TheMadcapLaughs said:

It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist.

Strange as it may seem, I actually know that.

TheMadcapLaughs

grey_til_I_dye said:

Madcap

We can't know what is in people's hearts.

I'm saying that I can't think how anyone with openly racist views could vote for anything other than Leave.

It's not really that important anyway, since no one is saying that 'Leavers are racist', so it's a bit of a sideline.

Mr G. 1 and 2 agree, number 3, you are correct, no one is saying this, but the "all racists would have voted leave" is plainly wrong. As simonc says, racism takes many forms and not all racists are overt. There are plenty of "decent" racists out there in middle England that would have undoubtedly voted remain for economic reasons but are no less racist than the shaven headed brigade. The phrase "all racists would have voted leave" is a deliberate slur against anyone that voted leave.

TheMadcapLaughs

MrsGrey said:

TheMadcapLaughs said:

It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist.

Strange as it may seem, I actually know that.

I didn`t doubt that for a minute Mrs G. I thought after 75 pages we had overcome the myth that all racists voted leave. All overt racists may well have voted leave, but there would be plenty of middle England racists that voted remain. I don`t know why the racist card keeps raising its head.

TheMadcapLaughs

grey_til_I_dye said:

I can't think why someone with stated racist views would choose to remain in the EU, especially given the focus on immigration control in the run-up to the vote.

I don`t think that being concerned over immigration has much to do with racism. I think they are two separate issues. Even Mrs Merkel has voiced concerns (over her own judgement) in having a totally "open door" policy. The anti immigration stance obviously appeals to racists which is a crying shame since as a topic immigration needs to be discussed openly and honestly without the word "racist" hovering overhead. I am a firm believer in open borders and free movement as concepts, but experience appears to show that (in the World we currently live) free and open borders seem to be both dangerous and divisive wherein the exact opposite should be true.

grey_til_I_dye

The phrase "all racists would have voted leave" is a deliberate slur against anyone that voted leave.

No, it really isn't, and I don't see how you get to that.

I think that for some Leavers to ignore the racist element of the Leave vote (and parts of its campaign) is either naive or disingenuous, and using the 'well your saying we're all racist' card is a cheap rhetorical trick with no basis in fact.

NEoldiron

Interesting piece here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38227674

TheMadcapLaughs

Mr G, I have and do acknowledge the racist element in the leave vote. But "all racists voted leave" is plainly an incorrect statement, but one that is used regularly by remainers (not just on here). A statement that has no value whatsoever, but is regularly used, has one purpose, and that is to denigrate by association. If you believe the statement to be correct and factual then fine. If you have any doubt as to the validity and accuracy of the statement, why use it.
The statement seems to be a popular one and one that goes unchallenged when quite obviously the statement is a nonsense.
And please show me which leavers have chosen to ignore the racist element of the leave campaign.