The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

NEoldiron

From another extreme left wing source "the Institute for Financial Studies":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37023488

pardewalegend

Thought we was all going to be homeless by now lol

grey_til_I_dye

Did you?

Once again proving how misinformed some Leavers were, I guess.

pardewalegend

That was a joke

NEoldiron

Correction - Institute for Fiscal Studies. ;biggrin

Pards, sadly many Leavers didn't take it seriously i.e. took it for a joke.
Now look at the current and predicted future situation - not much to laugh about at the moment is there, not much of a joke. ;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

Rather than bashing leavers continuously about being misinformed and stupid, how about a thought for those Remainers who, if the benefits of being in the EU were THAT great failed to make their points before the referendum? Instead they chose to bully everyone with threats if we left.

IronHerb

So I'm a bully now am I? ;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

Didn't say you were herb

IronHerb

Remainers & Instead they chose to bully everyone with threats if we left.

Certainly reads that way.

baracks_a_hammer

I said THOSE Remainers not ALL remainers

NEoldiron

Baracks, still happy to have voted Leave?

What was your particular reason to vote leave, a few examples:
Border controls,
Money for NHS,
Courts can't deport criminals because of human rights.

But what's this about bullying and threats, that's the language of Farage and co, or do you mean warnings of the consequences of leaving?

baracks_a_hammer

NE

Yes I 100% am

And I'll give you a couple of examples of what I consider to be bullying threats from pretty influential people

Gideon - exit = emergency budget and tax rises

Obama - back of the queue

By the way, I hail from Coventry - a city which had a booming car industry ripped away from it to other countries, all witihn the EU days. So perhaps it might be possible to empathise slightly with people who have lived and born the brunt of things like this if they chose not to put their X in the remain box?

MrsGrey

;hmm I don't think you are going to get your car industry back, though.

And it might fairly be said, on the other side, ' perhaps it might be possible to empathise slightly with people who have ... had the opportunities and social and economic benefits of being in the EU and are now going to have those ripped away from them and will be bearing the brunt of exiters choosing not to put their X in the remain box?


--

My point being, I feel it is a mistake (just my opinion, mind) not to look at the bigger picture (which is what your car industry' comment sounds like).

baracks_a_hammer

Still doesn't mean people from Coventry, for example should be persecuted for voting leave (if they chose to do so)

Tomw85

NE just a quick note on one of your earlier posts about the NHS - as a previous Tory and leave voter I would be furious if they do try to privatise/break down the NHS so fully agree with you on that one. That being said I do also think that there is need for reform within the NHS given some of the crazy salaries that middle managers and temp/agency staff are reported to be on. In my opinion this would be better spent on more nurses and doctors.

Anyways on to your most recent question - yes I would still vote leave (I didn't say happy as it was not a happy decision for me).

So far the fallout from the vote is actually less than I expected. It was always going to be a turbulent time after the result and my decision was made with that in mind. My reasons for voting leave do not fall into your list, it was more to do with that I did not believe that in the long term it was right for us to remain in the EU which is constantly looking to extend its control/power over its member states.

I am all for free trade, and even free movement of labour but for me these benefits were slowly being eroded by the direction that the EU is ultimately heading in. Rather than an EU based free trade and human/workers rights I would like to see a world wide set of standards set up to benefit all. However I do not believe that the EU will be able to achieve this and I think that there can be a more democratic way of achieving this in the future. That might be an idealistic view, but for me the I do believe it could be possible and as shown by the response of the remain voters there are many people out there that want to safe guard our future. You and I just have a different view on how we might be able to get there.

TheMadcapLaughs

NEoldiron said:

Correction - Institute for Fiscal Studies. ;biggrin

Pards, sadly many Leavers didn't take it seriously i.e. took it for a joke.
Now look at the current and predicted future situation - not much to laugh about at the moment is there, not much of a joke. ;hmm

Yes I voted leave because I didn`t really understand the complex issues involved, there was long words and fings that don`t really interest me like politics and economics and fings. I voted leave cos I thought it would be funny like a lot of me mates. ;lol ;biggrin ;lol ;biggrin ;lol I can barely type for laughing ;lol

NEoldiron

TW85

"So far the fallout from the vote is actually less than I expected."
I suggest you follow some of the links I've posted to see just how hard it is going to be just to get the economy back to where it was before the referendum.

"Rather than an EU based free trade and human/workers rights I would like to see a world wide set of standards set up to benefit all."
I think that place is called Utopia. As soon as you involve USA you can forget about workers' rights.

"I am all for free trade, and even free movement of labour but for me these benefits were slowly being eroded by the direction that the EU is ultimately heading in."
Firstly, so you agree then that free movement of labour is a benefit.
Secondly, can you explain why you think these benefits are being eroded.

TheMadcapLaughs

Sorry, to give my post a certain level of gravitas I forgot to put:

;hmm

That`s better.

NEoldiron

Madcap, your post says it all. Thanks for the clarification. If only everything was as simple. ;wink

Tomw85

NEoldiron said:

TW85

"So far the fallout from the vote is actually less than I expected."
I suggest you follow some of the links I've posted to see just how hard it is going to be just to get the economy back to where it was before the referendum.

"Rather than an EU based free trade and human/workers rights I would like to see a world wide set of standards set up to benefit all."
I think that place is called Utopia. As soon as you involve USA you can forget about workers' rights.

"I am all for free trade, and even free movement of labour but for me these benefits were slowly being eroded by the direction that the EU is ultimately heading in."
Firstly, so you agree then that free movement of labour is a benefit.
Secondly, can you explain why you think these benefits are being eroded.

NE I have been reading a wide range of media reports (mostly bad) as well as the links you have posted and the ones I get daily from my sister too. I still had expected that the potential fallout could have been a lot worse. I work in property in London and was very worried how that might be affected, but so far there has been minimal fallout that I am seeing personally. Yes it is too early to fully understand the full ramifications, but equally there was also a drop due to panic which may also correct itself and show in time that the damage may be less than forecast (I live in eternal hope).

Re the USA - there are many issues there that need addressing as well as workers rights, health care, and gun control to name a couple but their voters seem to not want these things. This is the problem with democracy, you cannot force things on a population if they do not want them even if they may be better for it. But what better system do we have to help us make the world a better place?

Free movement of labour is a benefit, free movement of people though has knock on effects that need to be considered and should be a subject that can be discussed without people being branded racist or equally using it as an excuse to be racist. We couldn't actually cope if all of the people in the world who are in desperate need all turned up at once seeking our help. We should look to address the issues causing mass movement of people whilst doing what we can for those really in need, however that is no small issue to be able to sort out and again there is no easy solution. I do not think that the EU's open door policy was the right decision, however I do 100% agree that we do need to help and that we should be looking at all options.

pardewalegend

Ne

Both sides lied through teeth it's politics as for the future well like me you can't say what will happen

From a personal point my business has seen no change yet and neither has any of my clients

OutcastLondoner

The EU doesn't have an open-door policy on refugees though. It's taken in a tiny amount.

Most of the world's refugees are in countries like Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Pakistan, Kenya, Bangladesh, Nepal etc.

If more of the world had regional free movement policies like the EU, that would ease refugee and migrant crises. A lot of the people deemed economic migrants these days are actually climate refugees. From areas completely destroyed so they're having to move away. If the borders of nation states weren't restricting them, we could have greater regional movement rather than having these long journeys. Borders are outdated, countries think they can lock themselves behind their own borders and protect themselves but they only exacerbate problems. Especially in regions where the borders were drawn up in a lunch time or with a ruler.

TheMadcapLaughs

NEoldiron said:

Madcap, your post says it all. Thanks for the clarification. If only everything was as simple. ;wink

NE perhaps everything is as simple. I think you will find that as human beings we are tending to over complicate things. Muddy the waters with rules, regulations, layers of bureaucracy, committees, sub committees, quangos, focus groups, town councils, borough councils, county councils, central government, local government, the european parliament, the european council, the european commission, the local mayor, the regional police commissioner, a new mayor for norfolk and suffolk (hurrah), etc etc etc etc. I voted out as I personally would like a change, a radical change. We are being conned. I look at things from an anarcho-communist perspective, I hate men in grey suits, the less of them the better, the less of their piffle the better. You can put as many links to as many experts as you like. I like to think and do as I like, not what the socially and morally corrupt people at the top say. I don`t care if the FTSE100 goes up down or side ways, I don`t care if property in London is losing a thousand pounds a day, I, as a free thinking individual have had enough of the status quo, enough of the mind numbingly pointless drivel that comes from the mouths of politicians. I said pages and pages back, the european parliament can disappear first and then lets start looking at the wasters and chancers in this country. If you want any confirmation that the old boys club is alive and kicking have a look at Camerons resignation honours list. The only reason I can see to vote remain is to uphold and strengthen further the current system, not for me I`m afraid. Like you say NE, if only everything in life was as simple. Well perhaps it can and should be. ;wink

NEoldiron

AKA I don't know whether you want me to reply to your post if, as you say, you're off here for good.
But on the off chance that you'll be curious enough to check, I'll ask you this - how is it disrespectful and how am I preaching?
I am simply posting, from various informed sources, opinions, comments, forecasts etc. on the fallout of the Brexit vote. Unfortunately, they all seem to be negative. If that's painful, you've made your bed, now lie in it.
This is not something as trivial as a football result. This is something that will affect millions of lives for possibly a generation, and not for the better. If you leavers think you're not going to be reminded of this, then think again.
And if that is what you call preaching, I suggest you go to a church or temple or mosque to hear what preaching really is.

Madcap, I hear what you're saying, it probably worked for a while back in much earlier times, but I think it's too late to turn back the millennia.

Outcast ;ok

PrestonHammer

How do you know that in the long term it won't be better? You can't possibly know that. You are coming across as very bitter. Brexit is happening, regardless.

thornburyiron

NE that's all they are, opinions. If you want to spend every waking moment trawling anything and everything to find all the negative comments or postings you can then that's fine by me.
I'm sure any positive articles you claim to be ficticious.
Nobody at all knows what the outcome will be.

grey_til_I_dye

Preston

Personally, I am bitter about both the outcome, and the way it was reached.

You're right that I can't know what the long term effects will be for certain, but I strongly doubt they will be so much better than things would have been that the inevitable short to mid-term consequences will be worth it.

NEoldiron

Thorn, actually nothing would please me more than to be eventually proved wrong, so if you find any positive articles, please post them. I won't even mind if you gloat ;biggrin
For your information, I don't spend "every waking moment trawling anything and everything to find all the negative comments or postings I can". I only have to open my homepage (BBC) and read what I see there or follow a link.

I want the UK to be a united, successful place to live with a thriving economy, a well functioning NHS and a fair and equal society.
I just don't think that we will achieve it this way any time in the near future and all the articles that you refer to seem to agree with that.

PrestonHammer

NEoldiron

The first sentence in your second paragragh, I totally agree with you. I am 100% in agreement with you.

The second sentence in that same paragraph is where you and me disagree and feel in the near future it can't be done.

This is where we differ, I feel in the near, to possible future, things could be different, where we could meet in the middle, things could be different.

The thing is, we won't know for definite for a good few years.

For now, we will have to disagree to disagree. ;ok

Tomw85

NE below is a link to what I believe is a positive story follow the referendum. For me this shows that our government still very much want to support and boost our economy where they can:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/13/philip-hammond-treasury-eu-grants-investment-fund-projects