West Ham Utd v Newcastle Utd. Saturday 19th February, 12:30pm. BT Sport.

OldCastleSwift

thornburyiron said:

I kind of agree with him. If they can’t play once a week, which they have been for the las5 few weeks, then they’re in the wrong job.

It's the cumulative effect of playing week in, week out with no rotation. The players aren't machines. Soucek's basically played or trained non-stop for two years. He needs a break, and his form shows it, but can't because Moyes clearly doesn't trust his other midfielders. Same with Antonio. Needs a rest but has to keep ploughing on; again, his form is being affected but there are no alternatives.

OutcastLondoner

Think Moyes made bad decisions starting Fredericks and taking off Benrahma. Benrahma had his best game for a while, I think, and the most active of any of our attacking mids as a starter. Fornals was pretty bad today. No need to say anything more about Fredericks but at least Moyes recognised how bad he was.

I thought we played pretty well first half and even for bits of the second half early on but just lost direction. Antonio is coming wide too much and it looked at one point like Moyes just told him to play winger and let Bowen go up front. Cresswell really isn’t the same player since his injury.

thornburyiron

I would imagine the GPS “bras” they’re wearing are giving Moyes information that suggests they aren’t fatigued and I would assume it also influences who is replaced when subs are made.
My guess is it’s just that they’ve not been able to maintain the form they’ve been hitting but unfortunately it’s happened in bulk save for Rice and Bowen.
Most clubs have good an bad and spells in a season and we are in a bad spell at the moment. A couple of wins and I expect us to pick up a bit but we need to do it soon as we are running out of games.

OldCastleSwift

Read that Benrahma's been subbed 18 times this season, more than any other PL player.

Yes, he can be inconsistent, but often no worse than Fornals. He was definitely more of a threat today and Pablo, so should have stayed on, IMO.

I do think there's something of an agenda. If Benrahma plays poorly, Benrahma's hooked. If Benrahma and Fornals play poorly, Benrahma's hooked.

He does need to do more, but rarely gets a full run of games to build up any consistency. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see him dropped for Wolves.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Benrahma isn't fancied by Moyes

Fornals hasn't been good this season but never comes off

OutcastLondoner

I agree Benrahma can be inconsistent but I think he gets a lot of criticism unfairly as well. If you want someone to try things then they’re going to sometimes lose it.

Yeoldhammer

I don't get why he doesn't play Vlasic in his central AM position. Its not as if Fornals or Benrahma are doing any better or worse than one another ?

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Yeoldhammer said:

I don't get why he doesn't play Vlasic in his central AM position. Its not as if Fornals or Benrahma are doing any better or worse than one another ?

Tbf Vlasic has done nothing when called upon

Moyes bought him for a lot of money has hasn't looked worth £2.5mil let alone £25mil

Moyes gets props for his good signings but last summer window has turned out to be terrible as only 1 of the 4 players have turned out any good

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

The headline on the OS

"David Moyes: We need to find a way of getting a better level of performance"

Yet he plays the same XI and the same tactics week in week out

Moyes needs to look at himself, his press conferences always deflect onto the players being out of form.....YOU ARE THE MANAGER!! You have to change it up when it's not working which it isn't as just sending them out week after week isn't going to change anything

Slacker

“ He’s taken us as far as he can.”

Coming to a thread near you soon.

horshamhammer

We missed Lanzini today I thought. And Ogbonna's absence is huge.

OldCastleSwift

Which brings us back to the squad. It's not big enough, I think we can all see that, but it's not varied enough either. No Plan B. Almost every sub Moyes makes is like for like.

Yeoldhammer

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

Yeoldhammer said:

I don't get why he doesn't play Vlasic in his central AM position. Its not as if Fornals or Benrahma are doing any better or worse than one another ?

Tbf Vlasic has done nothing when called upon

Moyes bought him for a lot of money has hasn't looked worth £2.5mil let alone £25mil

Moyes gets props for his good signings but last summer window has turned out to be terrible as only 1 of the 4 players have turned out any good

Well one of the reasons, is he is sticking him on the wing where he has rarely played in his career. I think Moyes thinks he can convert players to play multiple positions. I just don't like it personally.

OldCastleSwift

Slacker said:

“ He’s taken us as far as he can.”

Coming to a thread near you soon.

Bit of a leap, IMO. The man's not immune from criticism. He's had a lot of deserved praise over the last 18 months, but he's also making mistakes and can be called out for them. It works both ways.

thornburyiron

You can’t have it all ways. We all say we need 2 top players for each position but you can’t say he always replaces like for like because that’s what happens when you have that.
Today would have been a day for Lanzini to replace Benrhama but he’s injured. The big problem we all know is Antonio, he’s useless as a footballer and just needs to be a beast and get in the box. What on earth he was doing out on the touch line swinging in crosses or trying long throws is beyond me. Rice should take control there and make him get in the box and cause havoc.

jay_in_cpt

Hugely missed Lanzini IMO, he's our one player capable of making the killer pass, he's an intelligent player who sees things other players seem incapable of, sadly this is where IMO Benrahama seriously lacks, he so often makes the worng choice..I'm not referring to today, as most were just as poor or worse than him, but Benrahma just sometimes makes poor decisions....His attitude when leaving the field can also be taken 2 ways, he cares, or he is fed up and hasn't the best attitude....
That's my take, all in all a very average all round performance, even Rice was not good today...anyone who watched it today could not say it was any better than that IMO...Bang average at best.....

yoyo

I don't think we'll get a Euro spot this season. I said that before today. It's not because of team commitment but due to lack of investment. I feel sorry for some of the players who, like us, can see the possibility of their season fading away. I'm reckon some of them feel let down. Plenty of games to go of course but IMO we've missed a fantastic opportunity that may not come around so easily again.

thornburyiron

I doubt the players, maybe Rice apart, would feel let down that the club didn’t but better players than them. As far as they’re concerned there is someone there for their position, maybe not as strong, but they would want to play anyway whoever we bought.

claretandbluesky

All out for the Europa league now, if that means resting a player or two on the respective weekends then that's what I would do. We have been through a lot of easier fixtures and not capitalised so I can't see a top six finish as possible at present. I confidently predict a 7-9 finish now. It is possible that we can up our game for the big cup games now and still do something.

thornburyiron

There could be a number of reasons why we are off form. I think it possibly looks worse than it is because as Buffy mentions and I’ve said it before we’ve been sussed. We spent a season and a half hitting teams on the break quickly and clinically and we did exceptionally well. When this season started we were still very confident and nobody expected us to continue where we left off but we did. Teams now have done their homework and know defensively we are frail at full back and know if they can shackle Antonio and Bowen then we struggle to overcome that. Generally they’ve not been able to do that with Bowen but Antonio seems to have shackled himself by not doing what he was doing and he’s drifting out wide too often. He’s desperate for a goal but if he shoots from anywhere further than 12 yards then it’s high and wide.
The Soucek Rice dynamics seems to have changed which is why Soucek doesn’t get into as many scoring positions but without Rice’s driving runs we are not getting forwards quick enough so I don’t know what the answer is there.
Moyes and his team are paid to work this out so we should let them get on with it. There are other teams currently below us who normally would be above us so their fans must be going through something similar.

OutcastLondoner

jay_in_cpt said:

Hugely missed Lanzini IMO, he's our one player capable of making the killer pass, he's an intelligent player who sees things other players seem incapable of, sadly this is where IMO Benrahama seriously lacks, he so often makes the worng choice..I'm not referring to today, as most were just as poor or worse than him, but Benrahma just sometimes makes poor decisions....His attitude when leaving the field can also be taken 2 ways, he cares, or he is fed up and hasn't the best attitude....
That's my take, all in all a very average all round performance, even Rice was not good today...anyone who watched it today could not say it was any better than that IMO...Bang average at best.....

Honestly this is one of the games that really confuses me. Benrahma put in players so many times. I thought he was more decisive than usual. And they all took too long to get in place or to get a shot off. I think the positioning of other players often makes him look worse.

yoyo

I didn't think Benrahma was that bad either and looks more dangerous than Vlasic IMO

jay_in_cpt

Outcast, like I said, he was not our worst player today, but he does seem to be the fall guy with Moyes.
Personally think he needs to be more wise at times, he often just misses the easy pass, like Lanzini is far more capable of doing...And I'm not talkng just about today, but in general..
He had a good start to the season, but at present is off pace and inconsistent IMO, like many others tho, Vlasic has never even reached that stage!
But hey, we all have our opinions, and while I think he's a decent player,not sure he'll ever be more than that, he needs to sometimes/more often than not just do the easy thing....Perhaps easier said than done!

whupathman

Well that was a bad day with our rivals turning up to play

thornburyiron

Looks like we are battling it out for 8th place so the 2 cups are our rout back into Europe.

BubblesNeverDies

Well at least Zouma got some positive comments on here today.

Fortuneseeker

Well we can't say we didn't see this coming can we? Fifth place atm which can become 8th very easily. Once we failed to bring in anyone in January any hopes I had for finishing in the top six and winning one of the cups went, oh I hope I am proved wrong, but most the squad appear knackered. David Moyes has said earlier that the players aren't reaching the levels they can but more than a few need a break to try to attempt to recharge which they aren't going to get a chance to do with the squad so lacking in quality. A defence for a few who are getting criticism - Soucek appears not to be playing in the same role as last season, to get the best out of him he needs to be in the box more getting on the end of crosses but we aren't doing much of that & he is dropping back to cover for Declan's new position. It doesn't help he is running on empty. Could Kral play the anchor role allowing the other two to play in a more offensive way.
When a player actually asked for a new player to come in to give him competition for his place it tells me he is looking for a rest. Antonio needs dropping he isn't the player we had at the start of the season. None of the full backs are coming out with any real credit. Today the 2 Centre Backs, Rice & Bowen can feel they did ok imho. Vlasic is an attacking midfielder so I will properly judge him when he is allowed to play in that position over some matches. If DM wants someone to track back and assist the defence he should have signed such a player and not try to convert him into one. Play him up front and see how he gets on. DM hasn't helped the team by not signing any recruits and come the end of the season I will regret his failure to do so even if he thinks he was right. My only hope is no one offers an acceptable amount for Rice and/or Bowen in the summer but with rumours of G&S selling up in 2023 they may look to take a below valuation for the pair of them.

claretandbluesky

I think we need use Noble and Kral more in the matches before the Europa matches. Give Bowen a rest and allow Vlasik extra game time, rest Zouma as well and allow Diop to partner Dawson.

In my view the Europa is everything now as not only has it been the first time in how many years we have earned a place but we are already in the knockout stages. It offers the best chance of a trophy and the best chance of Champions League qualification.

I can see little or no chance of us being good enough to get 6th in the league and 8th or 11th is all much the same when having a chance in the Europa still, so just go all out for the cup now.

thornburyiron

Fortune that all sounds plausible but if the GPS stats say that they are not knackered and they’re covering the same amount of ground etc then that is not the reason. It all seems to me down to a dip in form by most of the team. Rice and Bowen are the only ones who don’t seem to be suffering but in other positions Benrhama, Lanzini, Fornals and Vlasic can be rotated if he wants to.
It’s not just us though a lot of the teams are having dips and when it happens the whole team gets out of synch. Players don’t make the same runs they used to, passes which used to split defences are a bit off etc etc.
Antonio is the biggest issue as he is so desperate to score or assist, only 2 goals and 3 assists in the last 17, he’s not doing what he’s there for. He’s drifting about, trying cute little passes or dribbles and blasting for the moon at the earliest opportunity. I don’t think he’s knackered just low on confidence because of his drought. He’s a confidence player so make sure he gets in the box and something will happen. He’s not even been in there for corners most of the time.

MIAHammer

MIAHammer said:

I have no illusions about top 4. The only reason we are up there is because we’ve played more games. We’re competing for a top 6 place (maybe).

I changed my mind to Top 10 - maybe Top 8 if we’re really lucky