Zouma

ScotHammer

To me Zouma. being booed by fans of clubs including WHU could be seen as part of his education, by re-emphasising that what he did is unacceptable in this country. Maybe as affective as a (small?) fine.

Lukerz

ScotHammer said:

To me Zouma. being booed by fans of clubs including WHU could be seen as part of his education, by re-emphasising that what he did is unacceptable in this country. Maybe as affective as a (small?) fine.

Which is why I don’t get the outcry for him to be dropped. Two weekends sitting in his luxury mansion all safe & sound (apparently what the club should have done) or two weekends facing 40,000 volatile fans demanding answers & voicing their disapproval, whilst still being expected to perform under pressure. I know what I think the right thing to do is.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz said:

ScotHammer said:

To me Zouma. being booed by fans of clubs including WHU could be seen as part of his education, by re-emphasising that what he did is unacceptable in this country. Maybe as affective as a (small?) fine.

Which is why I don’t get the outcry for him to be dropped. Two weekends sitting in his luxury mansion all safe & sound (apparently what the club should have done) or two weekends facing 40,000 volatile fans demanding answers & voicing their disapproval, whilst still being expected to perform under pressure. I know what I think the right thing to do is.

So when a player gets a 8 match ban for racism, do you they should also be playing and getting booed instead?

ASLEFshrugged

The FA, FIFA and others have rules on racism

They don't appear to have any specific rules on animal cruelty but I imagine it would come under "bringing the game into disrepute"

Lukerz

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

Lukerz said:

ScotHammer said:

To me Zouma. being booed by fans of clubs including WHU could be seen as part of his education, by re-emphasising that what he did is unacceptable in this country. Maybe as affective as a (small?) fine.

Which is why I don’t get the outcry for him to be dropped. Two weekends sitting in his luxury mansion all safe & sound (apparently what the club should have done) or two weekends facing 40,000 volatile fans demanding answers & voicing their disapproval, whilst still being expected to perform under pressure. I know what I think the right thing to do is.

So when a player gets a 8 match ban for racism, do you they should also be playing and getting booed instead?

Yes, because for me 8 matches is rubbish as a sanction for a racist act. Who determines how many matches are enough? What is the price of racism? Rubbish. Either don’t bother or impose a proper sanction or rehabilitate.

I don’t believe you can quantify racial discrimination as an 8 week ban from playing football. I assume the player was still allowed to be a parent, husband, son & go about his day to day life as usual, all far more of an issue for somebody with racially discriminatory beliefs than playing a football match.

claretandbluesky

There is an argument for him playing against Leicester as the club have made their enquires, reflected and decided on a course of action. Regardless of whether we personally feel it's too lenient or too strong.

I think the thing to have done was drop him for the Watford match as at that point the enquiry and decision making process was in motion due to it having only emerged the evening before. That statement then should have been Kurt Zouma has been suspended whilst the club seek to ascertain the facts regarding the matter and decide upon an appropriate course of action. Somewhere between Kurt Zouma will not play for the club again and this is not an employer/club matter and we are taking no further action is where they land. I think the club have handled it pretty well aside from playing him on Tuesday.

As a personal view I think the punishment is feeling about ok.
£250k fine given to animal welfare organisations
Lost his sponsorship with Adidas
Cats removed, at least for welfare evaluation
A public condemnation on a bigger scale than he could have imagined.

I would not have a problem with him being sold in the summer but I do feel it's feeling proportionate now, bearing in mind however the 250k although sounding a large sum is still only actually two weeks money.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz said:

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years said:

Lukerz said:

ScotHammer said:

To me Zouma. being booed by fans of clubs including WHU could be seen as part of his education, by re-emphasising that what he did is unacceptable in this country. Maybe as affective as a (small?) fine.

Which is why I don’t get the outcry for him to be dropped. Two weekends sitting in his luxury mansion all safe & sound (apparently what the club should have done) or two weekends facing 40,000 volatile fans demanding answers & voicing their disapproval, whilst still being expected to perform under pressure. I know what I think the right thing to do is.

So when a player gets a 8 match ban for racism, do you they should also be playing and getting booed instead?

Yes, because for me 8 matches is rubbish as a sanction for a racist act. Who determines how many matches are enough? What is the price of racism? Rubbish. Either don’t bother or impose a proper sanction or rehabilitate.

Imo that is incredibly naive

You're banking on a educating approach that has no guarantees to work

And if it doenst then how has he been punished?

I don't agree that employeers don't have any ethical responsibilities and I think the fact a criminal offence (which naimal abuse is) can't be swept under the carpet (which i refuse to believe it hasn't as he's got off with it as most footballers do)

And if a proper sanction is required I.e. a contract termination then I'd prefer that option then him to just crack on like nothing happened...and him getting booed isn't gonna do anything (imo), footballers get booed all the time even when they've done nothing wrong but know clubs...he'll live

I think at this point the lines have been drawn and don't think anyone is going to change their mind and it doesn't appear that the club are going to change their kind unless forced to

MrsGrey

Of course there are no guarantees that an educational approach will work.

What is guaranteed is that if you don't try, you won't change anything.
How is that better?

alderz

There’s no guarantees that a ban works either, tbf. How many times has Suarez bitten people now? Three?

PrestonHammer

Who's to say that the RSPCA aren't going to prosecute? If they do, will that punishment suffice?

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

MrsGrey said:

Of course there are no guarantees that an educational approach will work.

What is guaranteed is that if you don't try, you won't change anything.
How is that better?

Did i say you shouldn't try and educate them?

I think they should still be pubsihed appropriately, not just given a slap on the wrist in the hope they'll change

Fortuneseeker

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10505319/Sir-Mark-Todd-caught-whipping-horse-branch-TEN-times-make-water-obstacle.html

Something else for the Daily Mail readers to debate!

Lukerz

I just don’t see how banning somebody from their job is a worthwhile cause? If the employer decides to sack them, that’s one thing, but to impose a temporary ban seems pointless unless the person’s job is in some way involved in the offence they have been accused of. West Ham could decide to sack Zouma, which they seem to be against, but that is their personal call. Zouma’s job doesn’t involve animals so there is no immediate risk to anybody if he continues to play. I imagine if he worked in an animal sanctuary, he’d be suspended pending investigation. If he stops playing for 2 or 3 games, then returns for the 4th game, what did that achieve? What was the point of that? What did anybody gain? Was it purely to send a message? It so, what message? That kicking cats means you sit out a few games? It’s far more productive, for me, to deal with it the way the club have.

Ravel49

They haven’t dealt with it tho.
A 2 week fine is a token gesture and would be nothing to him.
He shouldn’t be playing until the investigation is completed.
IMO of course
Just don’t understand how anyone can defend his actions and not want to see repercussions 🤦‍♂️
But I guess that all important Europa League Spot next season means more

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes

I haven't seen anybody defend his actions.

Ravel49

Ok maybe not defend
But happy for him to play and not condone his actions
Like football is more important than animal cruelty 🤦‍♂️

Lukerz

Just to be clear - I do not condone his actions & would not be against further action/sanctions if deemed appropriate, whatever they look like.

What I don’t agree with is the mass witch-hunt & the comparison with the reaction this story has created compared to other news stories (historic racial incidents), plus the hypocrisy of a lot of those speaking about animal cruelty when you look at the day to day animal cruelty that people happily turn a blind eye to.

MrsGrey

A two week fine is the biggest fine they can levy.

I get that other people might want to see a more punitive approach, but fining can't be more punitive. Not from the employers, anyway.

I'm interested to see what the RSPCA conclude.

Would those who are unhappy with the punishments so far, be happy to accept the judgement of the designated expert body?

And if not, will they want the law changed, or the role of the RSPCA changed, or do they think employers should set themselves above the law and the enforcement authorities.

chicagohammer

My issue re playing him or not is that we really did/do not know how playing him effects him, the fans and not least the other players who I presume are as conflicted about this as the rest of us.

IMO the prudent thing to have done would have been to suspend him for a couple of games, both to protect him, provide better optics and look to ensure as minimal a level of distraction to the upcoming games as possible.

A two week period would have provided the opportunity for the investigation to be initiated, statements made and remorse publicly shown which would presumably help dampen down the understandable initial anger.

Just my opinion of course.

Fortuneseeker

Diamantis, You called it right trying to finish as high up the League is what is important based purely from a football viewpoint & David Moyes has already indicated that is the case, I understand. 👍

Ravel49

👍🏻

Just looks like the club / moyes don’t care and are trying to move on as quick as possible and brush this under the carpet

jay_in_cpt

Diamantis_Are_Forever said:

👍🏻

Just looks like the club / moyes don’t care and are trying to move on as quick as possible and brush this under the carpet

As many on here agree with Luke’s point of view…Fair enough….
However I’m firmly against him playing and
Totally agree with Diamantis views..

Just wish the club took the decision out of Moyes hand and said until the investigation is over he will not be around the squad

We have IMO acted poorly, yea I know many won’t agree, it’s fine….

They could have thought for a minute and decided differently, forget a fine, that won’t worry the player or club…Peanuts to them..

It’s obvious many on here won’t agree , but other views including mine have differing views…thousands around the country and further, including Hammers fans

I also don’t agree with any comparisons with other people/ sports, this case is purely about our player who commuted a sick and violent cruel act on a family pet…let’s just try concentrate on what he did, while laughing about it…

So as much as many think it’s bring handled in the correct manner, there’s many, many people who simply don’t

No doubt he’ll play tomorrow, but I for one won’t enjoy seeing him wearing the shirt…

Lukerz

Jay 👍 & that is completely fine. I don’t even disagree with you as I am not sure this is a subject that requires agreement/disagreement. There is no right or wrong way of reacting to the incident. I respect your stance.

BubblesNeverDies

I don't think some people are going to be satisfied until he's locked up and the key thrown away.

steve

You can please some of the people some of the time, But not all of the people all of the time.

MrsGrey

Diamantis_Are_Forever said:

👍🏻

Just looks like the club / moyes don’t care and are trying to move on as quick as possible and brush this under the carpet

Rav, I think it can look like that if one only looks at the one action ( playing him).
But there's other things, like what people have said ( Moyes, club statement) and done (the maximum fine, invited the foundation to suggest charities that can benefit, what educational programmes he should complete)... Obviously folks can ignore that. But then the opinion they have on it all is not well founded because it is ignoring some relevant aspects.)

eskimoking

Jorderz_Moyes_will_be_Moyes said:

I haven't seen anybody defend his actions.

I had this debate with someone the other day. I was being accused of defending Zouma, which I absolutely was not. I was defending the club as their actions aren’t unforgivable and are subjective. They have business reasons to consider around what is a £30m asset.

alderz

Videos of our fans in Leicester singing songs about Zouma, including the line “if they switched the ball for a feline, he’d score a hat trick”.

Absolute morons.

MunichHammer

alderz said:

Videos of our fans in Leicester singing songs about Zouma, including the line “if they switched the ball for a feline, he’d score a hat trick”.

Absolute morons.

Absolute morons, I agree, but at the end of the day he brought it on himself and he has noone else to blame (apart from possibly his brother for posting the clip)

alderz

Sorry, I think maybe you’ve misunderstood. Our fans are singing PRO Zouma songs, celebrating what he’s done.