Zouma

whupathman

they should not be doing that, but fans sing dumb stuff at times

claretandbluesky

I think we all recognise there is a group of football fans who are at the lowest rung of human evolution and wear that as a badge of honour. I think all clubs have that small element but I have always suspected that we have a little bit more than our fair share of them.

Lukerz

I was having a chat today with a mate and we were talking about ‘You’ve Been Framed’ and those ‘funny’ pet videos which often involved animals, like cats, getting into tricky situations and, for example, falling down gaps in between cupboards and windows sills. All the while, this was filmed and partly staged by the filmer, before being sent in for cash to the show and canned laughter played over it for the audience to watch on Saturday night.

Then we started chatting about Kurt…

Ravel49

This doesn’t even compare

Lukerz

It does to me.

Filming animals doing potentially dangerous & harmful things, whilst doing nothing to stop it? I’d call that neglect & the RSPCA should also be involved. The fact a tv show used to have a segment dedicated to that for laughs makes it worse.

Once more, this is not to condone kicking a cat. It’s the hypocrisy of the overreaction (IMO) which is now turning this into material to be made into a joke (hence the West Ham chant) & the actual proper meaning/message will be lost.

Ravel49

I never seen anyone on you’ve been framed kick a cat or slap a cat
Not sure why u defend him so much?

Lukerz

Not defending him, as I have pointed out multiple times.

Ravel49

I get people deserve a second chance
But first they have to show remorse and go through rehabilitation
Token 2 week fine won’t matter to him

Ravel49

I’m not sure how u can over react to physical harm being given to a cat and not want repercussions 🤷🏻‍♂️

Lukerz

Stick on YouTube, search funny cat videos (for example). There are loads of vids of cats in dangerous situations. I saw 4 videos within 2 mins of looking of cats falling down a set of stairs and it being filmed with hundreds/thousands of likes. YouTube is an entertainment platform.

Yes, it’s not somebody kicking a cat, but I think we need to be very careful about saying that’s acceptable too.

Lukerz

Diamantis_Are_Forever said:

I’m not sure how u can over react to physical harm being given to a cat and not want repercussions 🤷🏻‍♂️

I do want repercussions, which it seems Zouma is currently in process of receiving. 👍

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz said:

Not defending him, as I have pointed out multiple times.

You have a funny way of "not defending him"

Lukerz

I don’t get why people can’t see a difference & why does the tone have to get personal?

I am saying 1) Zouma needs to have a follow up sanction/rehabilitation as part of this indefensible situation & I have stated that on this thread, but 2) the reaction to it can still be out of proportion with other social injustices & I can also question the wider levels of acceptability of other acts of animal cruelty. Why can those two not be separate? It’s not hard. There is also a danger to his mental health & the ramifications of pushing him consider doing something silly. I don’t buy the ‘well he shouldn’t have kicked the cat’.

I am genuinely baffled why it’s hard to accept.

I read an article today, it was about a 43 year old police officer, with a flawless record, who won awards for bravery & was called a hero, who was sacked due to physically grabbing a 14 year old boy around the throat. The article was toned in a way that supported the officer, pointed to his flawless history & the fact the boy was being ‘aggressive & spat at the officer’ - it also referenced the officer being off duty & suffering from depression at the time & being on a casual shopping trip with his wife. The reaction from the public comments was also very supportive, stating it was unfair that he was sacked, despite being a 43 year old who clearly had a moment of madness grabbing a 14 year old by the throat. It just made me compare both cases & I find the lack of consistency with society’s moral compass very odd.

alderz

I think that it’s very easy to draw a line directly from “this is no different to horse racing / you’ve been framed / an article about a police officer” to “yeah BUT”, whether you intend that line to be there or not. And I think that it’s very easy to view “yeah BUT” as defending something.

To me, he deserved more punishment from the club than he got. I feel he should have been banned for the Watford and Leicester games, and possibly more. The fact the club didn’t see fit to do that is very disappointing to me.

I think that there are many more societal ills that need to be addressed, and I think this situation highlights a lot of hypocrisy that I find frustrating (a friend of mine posting an Instagram story of how much he now despises Zouma and Moyes for playing him, and then following that up with a picture of a steak he had for dinner, for example). But I also feel that excusing the clubs failure to do what many regard as ‘the right thing’ and just pointing to those other ills seems like excusing the whole thing.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Zouma kicked his cat and was guilty of animal abuse

That doesn't change whether anyone thinks society has other problems which it obviously does and they are its own issues that can be debated untill it's blue in the face

But this is about Zouma and what he did and constantly bringing up other situations just appears to me as defending and saying "I'm not condoning" or "I'm not defending" doesn't really mean much if I feel that the context of the messages is contradictionary

IronHerb

What's a picture of a steak got to do with kicking a cat? Where's the hypocrisy?

PrestonHammer

The cow that the steak came from was kicked by the farmer?

alderz

IronHerb said:

What's a picture of a steak got to do with kicking a cat? Where's the hypocrisy?

I think you’ve picked up on the wrong point, but for me there is a hypocrisy in people being ready to say they want someone to lose their job and be vilified for abusing an animal whilst simultaneously supporting an industry that is perpetuated on the abuse of animals.

But, as I say, my point is that I think it is wrong to be doing this whataboutism to justify the club or Zouma’s actions. Which, whether intentional or otherwise, is what I get from people drawing comparisons.

Ravel49

The hard thing to accept is people not wanting repercussions for the act he has done
Still playing him and available for selections is absolutely disgusting imo
Just want the investigations to be concluded and go for there but in the mean time he should be suspended

IronHerb

But he has suffered repercussions, the least of which would be whether he plays a football match or not.

Lukerz

alderz said:

IronHerb said:

What's a picture of a steak got to do with kicking a cat? Where's the hypocrisy?

I think you’ve picked up on the wrong point, but for me there is a hypocrisy in people being ready to say they want someone to lose their job and be vilified for abusing an animal whilst simultaneously supporting an industry that is perpetuated on the abuse of animals.

But, as I say, my point is that I think it is wrong to be doing this whataboutism to justify the club or Zouma’s actions. Which, whether intentional or otherwise, is what I get from people drawing comparisons.

But you can do ‘whataboutism’ without justifying his actions & not to justify them.

Ravel49

Maybe he should of thought of his own mental health before he booted and slapped the cat

You can’t play that card just to defend him again
This isn’t personal but if you can’t see the wrong in kicking and slapping a cat and comparing this too you’ve been framed then theres not much left to say

BubblesNeverDies

What's taking the RSPCA so long in issuing a report on the cat's condition?

alderz

Lukerz said:

alderz said:

IronHerb said:

What's a picture of a steak got to do with kicking a cat? Where's the hypocrisy?

I think you’ve picked up on the wrong point, but for me there is a hypocrisy in people being ready to say they want someone to lose their job and be vilified for abusing an animal whilst simultaneously supporting an industry that is perpetuated on the abuse of animals.

But, as I say, my point is that I think it is wrong to be doing this whataboutism to justify the club or Zouma’s actions. Which, whether intentional or otherwise, is what I get from people drawing comparisons.

But you can do ‘whataboutism’ without justifying his actions & not to justify them.

Honestly, I think it’s a tricky line. I agree that you can without intending to justify, but even then it’s very easy to read implied justification.

ScotHammer

I think we can all say what Zouma did was wrong. But I believe the RSPCA/police are investigating to establish the facts (e.g. the intent, history of animal cruelty, etc]. Until that is complete, no one can say what the appropriate punishment is, and therefore that the club have acted inappropriately.

We can all say he shouldn’t be playing, To me, the club punished him for the video, and may punish him more if deemed appropriate.

Meanwhile, I hope the key messages about animal cruelty will not be lost in the ongoing media frenzy.

Slacker

I’ve said on this thread before that he shouldn’t be selected to to play for a couple of games as much for his mental health as anything else. I watched Souness laying into him yesterday and thought he was way over the top. What if Zouma goes and does something awful to himself?
I have zero sympathy for what he did but people in positions of influence should be very careful with what they say.

Ravel49

I think Souness was spot on

Lukerz

Slacker said:

I’ve said on this thread before that he shouldn’t be selected to to play for a couple of games as much for his mental health as anything else. I watched Souness laying into him yesterday and thought he was way over the top. What if Zouma goes and does something awful to himself?
I have zero sympathy for what he did but people in positions of influence should be very careful with what they say.

Well it wouldn’t matter if he did something silly as he kicked a cat

OldCastleSwift

It think there are three issues here and they've become blurred.

Firstly, there's the act. I have not seen a single person on here condone or defend what Zouma did. I think everyone acknowledges that what he did was inexcusable.

The second issue, and this is where opinions vary, is how the club have dealt with it. Some think a fine and educational programmes are proportionate, others don't. And that's fine. But again, in this debate I've not seem anyone defend Zouma's actions.

And then you have the wider debate around the perceived hypocrisy of the reaction. Again, opinions will differ and each one is valid. Some consider fishing and horse racing to be as cruel as kicking a cat; some don't. Once more, there's no right or wrong when it comes to this argument because it's how the individual sees it.

I get the situation is an emotional one, but I don't think it's fair to say anyone is defending Zouma.

Slacker

Lukerz said:

Slacker said:

I’ve said on this thread before that he shouldn’t be selected to to play for a couple of games as much for his mental health as anything else. I watched Souness laying into him yesterday and thought he was way over the top. What if Zouma goes and does something awful to himself?
I have zero sympathy for what he did but people in positions of influence should be very careful with what they say.

Well it wouldn’t matter if he did something silly as he kicked a cat

Nope, lost me there.