Brexit

Cuz1

I voted leave and still want us to leave, not because of any racist view because I’m certainly not racist in any shape or form, if the majority of voters had voted to remain I wouldn’t be lobbying to get the vote changed, but my vote now seems pointless if brexit does not now happen, I for one would never vote again in any government elections end of

ASLEFshrugged

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Apparently the right wing across Europe have been trying to unite with common purpose under the tutelage of Steve Bannon. There seems to be a consensus from what I have read that right wing parties will win approximately one third of available seats in the European parliament, and that is without the UK, would likely to be more if the UK included.

Everything I've read suggests that Bannon's attempts to unite the far right have been less than successful and he's gone home to the US. As for predictions I refer to my earlier comment about UKIP in 2015.

thornburyiron said:

Bubbles you are making it up. I’m sure most of the 17.4M wanted out. Everyone was told it meant out of everything so that’s what was voted for.

Not true, there were various versions of Leave depending on who you were listening to.

There was staying in the customs union like Turkey, staying in the European Economic Area like Norway, having a no tariff deal like Canada or leaving everything (which would mean border checks in Ireland although I don't think anybody even mentioned that at the time).

thornburyiron

Aslef the leaflet everyone got through their door said leaving meant out of the customs union and out of the single market. It couldn’t have been more explicit so why would people think it meant something else.

ASLEFshrugged

thornburyiron said:

Aslef the leaflet everyone got through their door said leaving meant out of the customs union and out of the single market. It couldn’t have been more explicit so why would people think it meant something else.

I didn't get a leaflet but there was more than one.

You had Leave.EU which was Aaron Banks, Vote Leave which was Boris and Gove. Then there was Grassroots Out with Farage, Liam Fox and Kate Hoey which was created because they couldn't stand the other two fighting. Plus there were a load of smaller groups.

They all produced their own leaflets and all had their different views of what Leave meant.

So who's leaflet did you get?

chicagohammer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47701591

Cuz1

Boris Johnson says it’s time to channel the spirit of Moses in exodus and say to the pharaoh in Brussels let my people go

MrsGrey

chicagohammer said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47701591

chicago, I'm not sure what you did when posting the link, but is wasn't working.

I've had a tinker, and think it's OK now. Can you check if you have a mo that it does point to the article you wanted it to? :ok:

'MPs take control of Brexit process'

thornburyiron

Aslef it was the leaflet produced by the government urging a remain vote which was distributed to every household.

TheMadcapLaughs

I know a fair few leave voters that cover a wide spectrum of society, farmers, small business owners, some pretty "poor" people, and ones that I know have a million or four tucked away. And not one of them, before the vote, or shortly after, mentioned or discussed "type" of Brexit. There was no mention of Canada ++, no mention of Norway -, just a simple clean choice of stay or leave. The details would be left to those that know, the experts. It was assumed that these experts would actually act like adults, and work together for the good of the country, after all a large majority of them invoked article 50 and stood on platforms dedicated to delivering Brexit. You would have thought given their commitment to this cause they may have, by now, delivered a workable solution. Just to reiterate, I think that this focus on type of Brexit, I.E. "people didn`t know what they were voting for", is a nonsense, we did. We voted to leave the EU. The argument "now we know what`s on the table" people should be given another vote is also nonsense. If we understood every piece of legal claptrap proposed we still wouldn`t be none the wiser, we can`t know the consequences of the mumbo jumbo, not for years. The politicians either have the guts to leave, or they don`t. I just wish they would be honest, make a decision, and stick with it.

MrsGrey

thornburyiron said:

Aslef it was the leaflet produced by the government urging a remain vote which was distributed to every household.

:hmm: I looked that up last night and didn't see those 'promises'?

Lemme go find it and look again.
Edit: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160815143715/https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/ Scroll down a bit to find a link to the leaflet.

I've just read it again. It doesn't mention the customs union at all.

As for the single market, it isn't categorical that a vote to leave means out of the single market. It highlights the perceived advantages of membership of the EU = full access to the single market plus a say in its rules. It also mentions other ways of accessing the single market while not a member of the EU, saying that these could be negotiated.

OutcastLondoner

TheMadcapLaughs said:

I think that this focus on type of Brexit, I.E. "people didn`t know what they were voting for", is a nonsense, we did.

\ :puzzled:

Talking about type of Brexit isn't saying people didn't know what they're voting for at all...it's saying people voted for different reasons and expect different versions. I seem to remember lots of talk about how a deal would be done - not so much about no deal...

ASLEFshrugged

Madcap - they are being honest.

Some are being honest when they say they want to stay in the EU because leaving would be stupid.

Others are being honest when they say they want a "hard Brexit" because it would be best for the country in the long run (it could be 50 years according to Rees-Mogg).

Others are being honest when they say that they want to leave with a deal because staying would be bad but leaving without a deal would be catastrophic.

Life is not simple, politics and economics are complicated, that is why we elect politicians to do the things that we can't be bothered to do ourselves.

We also have experts who advise politicians but apparently we'd had enough of experts according to Michael Gove.

TheMadcapLaughs

Outcast, people certainly voted for different reasons, can`t really see the significance of that, but it is often presented as "didn`t know what they were voting for". Despite the different reasons, asked the question "in?" or "out?" the majority of people chose out. Amongst the people I know, there was never any talk of hard, soft, Norway, Canada, customs union etc etc etc, the decision was out, with subsequent trust put in the politicians to sort the finer details.

Aslef. Life is simple. As human beings we need food, water, clothing and shelter. We have the means many times over of providing the above. Politicians and "economics" are the very things that have complicated the issue, but we seem to think that more politicians and more rules and regulations is the answer. I also think that without "leaders" dividing us we would rub along pretty well. I think most of us would be bothered to provide for ourselves/families without a governmental green light.

ASLEFshrugged

Sorry Madcap, maybe that would have worked if we'd never developed beyond living in clan villages growing our own food and providing our own goods but then we started building cities, trading goods and life got complicated.

Plato wrote "Republic" around 380 BC, Confucius wrote his works on government about 100 years before that, its a bit late to go back.

imagelost

You all
Some people just vote to be rebellious and some people voted for what was good at the time !
2years down the road and lead by leaders who do not want to leave, it’s hardly surprising the remains numbers of swollen,,,
Like a Gammie leg waiting to be cut off
If we remain in and it goes wrong ,,,, well civil unrest springs to mind,,, just saying

ASLEFshrugged

Imagelost - the last time we did civil unrest on a major scale was the Poll Tax Riots 30 years ago and that was just a minority of the protestors. We do marches but other than that we're not into making a fuss,

TheMadcapLaughs said:

I also think that without "leaders" dividing us we would rub along pretty well.

Yeah, lets see how that works between the Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.

imagelost

Yer right,,, let’s shelll out billions £ to rejoin the EU and who’s pocket will that come of?

imagelost

Also the standard of politicians seams very poor, make wounded what other bad news those MPs are burying?

OldCastleSwift

imagelost said:

If we remain in and it goes wrong ,,,, well civil unrest springs to mind,,, just saying

How would remaining 'go wrong'? :hmm:

I'd have thought that leaving presented far more risk in terms of things going wrong.

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef, I agree, things have got complicated, my point is that things have become unecessarily (I can never spell that word) complicated, deliberately. I haven`t given up hope that we can make things a little less complicated. The banks openly admitted after the crash that part of the reason for the crash was that the bankers themselves didn`t understand many of the transactions they were participating in. I still believe that countries, regions, states (whatever you want to label them) could be more self sufficient. We have the knowledge, the technology, the people the resources to produce most of what we consume. People would prefer (given the choice) to shop local. Posh chefs are forever banging on about "everything on this plate comes from within 3 yards of my stove" (I said that in a Yorkshire accent in my head). To me it makes sense from an environmental perspective and from a human/well being perspective. To big business it doesn`t make sense from a bottom line perspective. It is about billionaires and profit. For 150 years some people have been decrying the environmental impact of big business/capitalism. These people were shunned. Funny now that environmentalism is seen as "the green industry" (I.E. there is a profit in this saving the planet malarkey) big business, and the politicians, are suddenly interested. I suppose clan villages with an internet connection would be the way to go.

I would imagine that the vast majority of ordinary Arabs and ordinary Jews would rather be living their lives in peace than chucking bombs and bullets at each other. Just a hunch. Even in the midst of the greatest wars 99.9% of people get on with their lives. They get up in the morning, pack their kids off to school, go out and scratch a living, come home, enjoy some family time, and repeat. It`s what we do. Naturally. Most of human history has been lived in peace, but "history" is catalogued and defined by war.

imagelost

OldCastleSwift said:

imagelost said:

If we remain in and it goes wrong ,,,, well civil unrest springs to mind,,, just saying

How would remaining 'go wrong'? :hmm:

I'd have thought that leaving presented far more risk in terms of things going wrong.

The vote was won by leave campaign :wave:

grey_til_I_dye

Lots of athletics medals were won by athletes later found to have cheated.

Their medals were taken away from them.

I don't see how people can scream 'democracy' based on a vote that was riddled with misrepresentation and breachng of electoral law.

OldCastleSwift

imagelost said:

OldCastleSwift said:

imagelost said:

If we remain in and it goes wrong ,,,, well civil unrest springs to mind,,, just saying

How would remaining 'go wrong'? :hmm:

I'd have thought that leaving presented far more risk in terms of things going wrong.

The vote was won by leave campaign :wave:

What did I ask? :hmm:

thornburyiron

People still voted leave though Grey. I know loads of leavers and remainers and none of them were duped, misled or whatever by the propaganda on both sides as they, despite what remainers keep insinuating, did not believe most of what they were being told.
They may all have had different reasons for voting whichever way they did and to the best of my knowledge none of my friends, relations, acquaintances are stupid. I may not agree with everything they say and vice versa but I wouldn’t call them stupid because of their views.
The fact that more money was spent by some campaigns than technically allowed made zilch difference to peoples’ votes as did the millions spent by the government on their remain leaflet.

ASLEFshrugged

Madcap - 99.9% of people get on with their lives because they have other people doing all the things they need for them. Housing, education, employment, roads, public transport, food, water, health care, electricity, TV, mobile phone networks, the internet. We rely on governments or private companies to provide these for us and when they fail deliver we complain.

99.9% of people live very comfortable lives because someone else is doing all this stuff for us and they rarely give it a moments thought until they don't have it. What they rarely ever do is get together with other people and try doing it for themselves.

Its worth remembering that the Arab-Jew conflict started when both were ruled by the British. The conflict was about inequality, they will never "rub along together" until both sides accept the right of the other to be there and everyone is treated as equal citizens. Wherever there is inequality there will always be conflict.

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef, the history of mankind is people getting together and doing it for themselves. We have all of what you mention because of people, because of human endeavour and initiative, not because of government say so. People do, governments hinder. All great leaps forward are people led, not government led. I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

Barney

Grey - that applies to General elections as well so I dont think there should be an exception for the Brexit vote.
Sadly we have a parliamentary process that is not fit for purpose but we have to be consistent.

TheMadcapLaughs

I don't see how people can scream 'democracy' based on a vote that was riddled with misrepresentation and breachng of electoral law.

Fake news. WITCH HUNT

Ace of Clubs

Yeoldhammer

The misinformation was never really challenged by the remain campaign. Instead of arguing what the EU does for the UK and how we function within the EU, they spent the majority of the time saying what the UK will be like without the EU.

The remain campaign was really poorly run a complete lack of leadership and drive.