Brexit

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  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited March 2019
    What's that got to do with with whether or not we should be a member in its current form?

    Many things could happen in the world in the future. Are we to make all our decision now based on something that hasn't happened but might?

    Are you posting it as a point of general interest, because I can't see that it has any relevance to the current situation.
  • imagelostimagelost
    edited March 2019
    MrsGrey said:

    What's that got to do with with whether or not we should be a member in its current form?

    Many things could happen in the world in the future. Are we to make all our decision now based on something that hasn't happened but might?

    Are you posting it as a point of general interest, because I can't see that it has any relevance to the current situation.

    Are you trying to stop people have political view?
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    You’ve missed the point. The post earlier ridiculed the idea of our being forced into the euro so I was merely pointing out that it isn’t ridiculous.
    Also it’s current form won’t be sustained for many more years.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited March 2019
    1. My reading of the earlier post was that it was pointing out that the statement 'after 2020 we'll have to adopt the euro' is a lie. Which, obviously, it was when the statement was made. And it still is.

    2. Clearly things may (or may not) change. That's pure speculation. But assuming they do change in the direction of EU members being required as condition of membership to adopt the euro, how do you envisage us being 'forced' to do this. Because, you know, we can't be forced to do it - if at some as yet unspecified time in the future, the EU member states agree some new conditions on membership, then we could just leave at that point if we didn't want to comply.
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited March 2019
    imagelost said:


    Are you trying to stop people have political view?

    Erm. No. Obvsiously.
  • imagelostimagelost
    Mrs g :hug:
    Am starting to worry about this thread,,, if only it would end one way or another :biggrin:
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    Cuz1 said:

    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three

    I think a lot of people made it clear they voted Brexit for different reasons. What out is means different things to different people. I don't know what the solution is but just because people voted to leave, it doesn't mean they voted for no deal and that can't be assumed.
  • imagelostimagelost
    OutcastLondoner said:

    Cuz1 said:

    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three

    I think a lot of people made it clear they voted Brexit for different reasons. What out is means different things to different people. I don't know what the solution is but just because people voted to leave, it doesn't mean they voted for no deal and that can't be assumed.
    Yes indeed it to easy to say remain and be right
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited March 2019
    thornburyiron said:

    the state would be headed by Germany with France as its puppet

    That made me laugh. The idea of the French ever accepting rule by the Germans is the funniest thing I've heard in years.

    If the Gilet Jaunes have been protesting since 17th November over fuel tax imagine what it would be like if the French were told they'd become a single federal state with Germany!

    What does your "obscure relative" do at the EU, clean the drains?
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    T
    OutcastLondoner said:

    Cuz1 said:

    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three

    I think a lot of people made it clear they voted Brexit for different reasons. What out is means different things to different people. I don't know what the solution is but just because people voted to leave, it doesn't mean they voted for no deal and that can't be assumed.
    That’s like saying I’d vote for the death penalty but only if we used Scottish power electric in our chairs or only certain thickness of rope, the electorate voted out end of, the voted the government in but after the first bad decision made didn’t say can we have another vote don’t like this one simples in my opinion
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Just now:
    Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.
    5,345,648
    Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.
    535,764

    Have people changed their minds? Is that allowed or is the referendum vote set in stone for evermore?
    Just saying :whistle:
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    The demographics of the petition signers showed that almost all of those signing were in the major cities and were nearly all remainer constituencies.
    The numbers prove nothing. I doubt many who voted leave signed the petition.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    Cuz1 said:

    T

    OutcastLondoner said:

    Cuz1 said:

    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three

    I think a lot of people made it clear they voted Brexit for different reasons. What out is means different things to different people. I don't know what the solution is but just because people voted to leave, it doesn't mean they voted for no deal and that can't be assumed.
    That’s like saying I’d vote for the death penalty but only if we used Scottish power electric in our chairs or only certain thickness of rope, the electorate voted out end of, the voted the government in but after the first bad decision made didn’t say can we have another vote don’t like this one simples in my opinion
    Funny that you'd compare Brexit to the death penalty...


    I literally said I don't know what the solution is...but we should consider that people had different reasons for voting out. Just we acknowledge that a lot of people who voted Brexit were racists but not everyone. But good luck with your approach, the country will do well as long as someone's the winner, right?
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Aslef my relative works as a secretary/translator at the EU commission so no she doesn’t clean the drains and before you ask as far as I know she doesn’t earn as much as a train driver :biggrin: I personally have never met her but I am in contact with her closer relatives who incidentally with one or two exceptions voted remain.
    I agree that the French people or for that matter the people of any other of the EU member states wouldn’t be happy with a federal state but the chances of their having any direct say in the matter are probably nil. After all they don’t have any say in who makes up the hierarchy of the EU commission as they’re all unelected.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Thorn,
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/8/how-are-the-commission-president-and-commissioners-appointed

    Theresa May wasn't elected PM either.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Cuz

    'the electorate' did NOT vote for Brexit.

    A majority of those who took part in the referendum did.

    Given that it has been shown that the Leave campaign included false claims, and committed a number of breaches of electoral law, perhaps it is less the 'will of the people' and more the 'will of the shadowy elite'?

    I would argue that the first past the post system for electing UK MPs is flawed, but at the very least, if the choice turns out to be dramatically bad for the country, there are ways of undoing it.

    The same can not be said for leaving Europe. If it is a costly mistake (and all the signs are that at the least a no deal Brexit would be one) then everyone just has to lump it.

    I think in those circumstances, a degree of circumspection is justified.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited March 2019
    thornburyiron said:

    I agree that the French people or for that matter the people of any other of the EU member states wouldn’t be happy with a federal state but the chances of their having any direct say in the matter are probably nil. After all they don’t have any say in who makes up the hierarchy of the EU commission as they’re all unelected.

    The EU couldn't just mandate the creation of a federal state, as with Brexit it would take the leaders of all 27 nations to agree to it (or 28 if we're still in it) and no one would be stupid enough to do that without knowing they had the support of their electorates. To do otherwise would be political suicide.

    Like Turkey joining the EU the "United States of Europe" is a Leave myth, its own "project fear". I don't care what your relative does its utter nonsense.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited March 2019
    Liam Fox on the Today programme:

    “I was elected, as 80% of members were, to respect the referendum and leave the European Union. I was also elected on a manifesto that specifically said no single market and no customs union. "

    1. The Tory manifesto said that, not the referendum. So while it may bind Tory MPs, it matters not a jot to the rest of us.

    2. When the Tories stood on this manifesto in 2017, their support went down. Just sayin'

    He also said that the gvt could ignore any outcome of Parliament's indicative votes that they didn't like or that didn't align with Tory Party policy (eg, leave EU but enter into a customs union) even though it would 'respect the result of the referendum'.

    ;hmm That's what we're calling democracy now is it?
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef. I think governments doing things without the support of the electorate is why we are where we are today. Governments have been doing things for the last umpteen years despite what the majority of people want. It is why we have Trump, Brexit and the march of the far right (the populists) across Europe and beyond. That is why Macron has gone from being the French Blair to enemy of the people within 18 months. The neo liberals (for want of a better expression) have been driven by money, power and dogma, not by what is "best for the people". The neo liberals HAVE committed political suicide. I now hope and pray that we revoke article 50, I can`t wait for the EU elections, I can`t wait for Farage, pint in hand, grinning from ear to ear, to be on the front pages. I can`t wait to see the European parliament filled with Neo Nazis, Fascists and right wing nutjobs. I can`t wait to see the European parliament crippled by these people unable to "function". And who will the neo liberals blame? Not themselves, that`s for sure. It will be the stupid, thick, ignorant electorate. Forget the peoples vote, lets just revoke article 50 and get on with it.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Madcap - governments who don't have the support of the majority of voters tend to cease being governments after the next election, especially in countries with Proportional Representation (i.e. the other 27 EU countries).

    The Tories won't revoke Article 50.

    The problem with Macron is that he is the French Blair and "third-way" politics ceased to be relevant after the 2008 crash (something Blair, Umunna and the rest have failed to realise).

    I doubt if Farage will be grinning from ear to ear if he has to stand in the Euro elections because that would mean the EU have given the UK an extension to Brexit. Also by quitting UKIP to join the rather obscure Brexit Party there's a small chance he might split the vote and lose his EU seat.

    As for the EU parliament being full of "Neo Nazis, Fascists and right wing nutjobs" I'm not so sure. Before the 2015 General Election we were told that UKIP were going to win around 30 seats from both Labour and the Tories, instead they lost one of their two MPs.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    edited March 2019
    Apparently the right wing across Europe have been trying to unite with common purpose under the tutelage of Steve Bannon. There seems to be a consensus from what I have read that right wing parties will win approximately one third of available seats in the European parliament, and that is without the UK, would likely to be more if the UK included. I knew that the establishment (both here and in Europe) would never allow a full on Brexit, I knew that parliament would fudge the issue and resigned myself to the fact that we would in all probability not leave. What has been an absolute bonus is the fact that parliament has shown itself to be even more of a pointless chin wagging club than most people thought possible. What a useless bunch of spineless twits.

    :fence:
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    OutcastLondoner said:

    Cuz1 said:

    T

    OutcastLondoner said:

    Cuz1 said:

    Out means out in my view even if no deal is only option, we’ve had a vote the electorate chose leave and because it now doesn’t suit we want another referendum then what best of three

    I think a lot of people made it clear they voted Brexit for different reasons. What out is means different things to different people. I don't know what the solution is but just because people voted to leave, it doesn't mean they voted for no deal and that can't be assumed.
    That’s like saying I’d vote for the death penalty but only if we used Scottish power electric in our chairs or only certain thickness of rope, the electorate voted out end of, the voted the government in but after the first bad decision made didn’t say can we have another vote don’t like this one simples in my opinion
    Funny that you'd compare Brexit to the death penalty...


    I literally said I don't know what the solution is...but we should consider that people had different reasons for voting out. Just we acknowledge that a lot of people who voted Brexit were racists but not everyone. But good luck with your approach, the country will do well as long as someone's the winner, right?
    I’ve never said there should be a winner your words not mine, I said a vote was put to the people should we leave the eu the people voted yes so that’s what we should do not put reasons now as to why we still shouldn’t but ay it’s only my opinion
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    Sorry grey I meant to say the majority of the people’s vote said yes 17 million I believe
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    TM in HoC this evening:
    "The votes could lead to an outcome that is un-negotiable with the EU," she told MPs.
    "No government could give a blank cheque to commit to an outcome without knowing what it is."

    But 17.4 million did exactly that.

    File under "YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP"

    :nonono:
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Bubbles you are making it up. I’m sure most of the 17.4M wanted out. Everyone was told it meant out of everything so that’s what was voted for.
    Nobody knew or still don’t really know what the impact will be but that wasn’t the issue or the choice.
    Why do remainers keep on insisting that anyone who voted leave didn’t know what they were doing.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    SOME remainers do.

    And they are no more right than those Leavers who make generalisations about ALL remainers.

    Like wot you have just done.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    Did I say all? :biggrin: Certainly those I know do.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited March 2019
    You know me, and I don't say that. What I do say is that those who voted Leave had different priorities and red lines, and these led them to vote Leave by different routes. They also had different views about the nature of the future relationship with the EU (though we'd not be members, obviously ), which means they envisaged different destinations AFTER the referendum.

    I do, though, know someone who voted Leave and who told me, when next I spoke to him - 'I don't really want to leave'. When I thus expressed some small surprise at the way he voted, he announced with absolute certainty - Don't worry, we'll not leave, as there'll be a general election and Remain will be part of the manifestos and they'll reverse the referendum result.'
    ' I only voted Leave as a protest.' he added with a reassuring grin.

  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Thorn,
    TM says "No government could give a blank cheque to commit to an outcome without knowing what it is"
    But 17.4 million have committed to an outcome without knowing what it is except in extremely vague terms.

    The "YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP" referred to TM's contradictory remark.
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