Brexit

claretandbluesky

So what it comes down to now is will the DUP and ERG vote for her deal as afraid that to not do so will cause a long delay in which a deal with customs union will be voted through or even the dreaded (to them) second referendum? or will they gamble, and hope that to reject her deal at the last minute will lead to a falling out the door, after which of course a deal will be arrived at but at a time when there is no longer a chance of a second referendum as we will have already left.

I believe their aim is a for her to resign and the party members along with the newly joined ukipers will vote for Johnson or Rees Mogg to lead. If allowing her to stay however they will enjoy being able to blame the rubbish negotiations and eventual deal on her, claiming at the end that Brexit went wrong because of May rather than being a deeply flawed venture.

Barney

Mrs Grey - I dont think May has run down the clock. She had a deal agreed sometime ago. It is people from all sides in parliament that are forcing the clock to run down and in many cases to try to stop what the people voted for. Sadly many MPs are not supporting what the public voted for and in some cases are a disgrace in my view.
But we all have our own views on this

BubblesNeverDies

Herb, the reason I put "a Golden Age of Empire" in quotation marks was to indicate that it was not meant to be taken literally.
But you cannot deny that Leavers' comments such as, and I paraphrase here, "we were ok before the EU", "this is GREAT Britain", etc. refer to a past when Britain had an empire.

Whitehorsehammer

The PM's deal has been heavily defeated twice because it is a bad deal. The reason it is a bad deal are the red lines she set way back in her Lancaster House speach and then Chequers, and she has been too stubborn to change. Result, she has tried to bully Parliament into backing what it does not want with threats of "no deal" or "no Brexit". A shameful way to behave.

MrsGrey

I disagree.

The deal that was worked out was published on 14 November last year.

That's 4 months ago. 4 months and a few weeks before deadline day.

Why are we in a position that with what will be a few days to the deadline, she is bringing essentially the same agreement back for another vote?

That is 4 months wasted on political posturing and procrastination.

It was scheduled for a vote on 11 Dec - but the govt pulled it at the last minute and delayed the vote for a more than a month.

It was put to Parliament on 15 January. (Loss)

The next stage was supposed to be in Feb. But the govt postponed that. The delay meant that it was voted on a further two months after the first one.

The first agreement was a mess of her own making, and when it became clear that the deal could not garner enough support she has failed to act decisively and show proper leadership. Simply dragged her heels, delivered the soundbites and blamed everyone else, instead of FIXING the mess.

Barney

I have decided politics is not good for your health so I am going to cut back on my portions! Good to see a constructive debate though

MrsGrey

Certainly not good for one's blood pressure!!

MrsGrey

Barney said:

many MPs ..... are a disgrace in my view.
But we all have our own views on this

I think you'd get unanimity on THIS statement.

All in favour say Aye ;biggrin

Barney

Aye LOL

ASLEFshrugged

BubblesNeverDies said:

The majority of Leavers are English.

The majority of Remainers are also English, 13.3m compared to 2.87m who voted to stay in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

OldCastleSwift

She's just told the nation that she doesn't believe we want a second referendum.

I think there's a good number of us that do, you teflon lunatic.

IronHerb

And a lot who don't.

steve

Tried to keep out of this after moving to Canada over 30 years ago (best move I ever made )But you lot voted to get out don't care if some of you did not understand what that ment ,now some of you want another referendum ;doh No you had your vote ,What next at the next election you don't like the result so lets have another one ,or West ham loose a game so lets replay it ............. ;sofa .................... ;hug

MrsGrey

Well, whether people like the result of an election or not, they do get to vote again.

MrsGrey

IronHerb said:

And a lot who don't.

So she doesn't actually know.

OldCastleSwift

IronHerb said:

And a lot who don't.

No doubt.

But she shouldn't claim to speak for 'us' when she isn't prepared to hear 'our' voice now that we've had nearly three years to contemplate the effects of Brexit.

Steve - I strongly believe the goalposts have moved so much since the original advisory, non-binding referendum that the final decision should be made by the people it will affect the most.

General Elections are different; they're based on a clear mandate of what each party stands for and what they plan to do. The referendum was a far too simplistic 'in' or 'out'. Now we've heard nearly three years of debate and numerous reports on what Brexit actually means, I think it needs a final ratification by the electorate.

grey_til_I_dye

steve

Who are the 'you lot'?

Certainly not me.

I thought it was wrong then, and still do. I see nothing amiss in trying to prevent something I believe will be very damaging from being enacted.

I find it hard to stomach when the suggestion is made that a referendum tainted by duplicity and illegality somehow now represents the last bastion of democracy, and that a deal that no one voted for is now magically the will of the people.

BubblesNeverDies

Steve
Tried to keep out of this after moving to Canada over 30 years ago

You're not trying hard enough.

steve

grey,when I said you lot I ment the majority who voted to leave and some who know seem to be wanting to change there minds.am getting a bit fed up that some part of the human race seem to think they are owed a second chance in everything they deside they don't like .having said that I have had a lot of Canadian ;redwine which does not have some kind of European duty on it ;biggrin not my intention to upset anyone on here just people that are not on here ;biggrin

steve

Bubbles ,really did try in fact have tried for over two years Don't know what got into me today ..oh yes I do ;redwine ;redwine ;redwine

imagelost

BubblesNeverDies said:

Barney, are you saying that you voted Remain but have now become a leaver?
If so can you say why and what do you see as the benefits in leaving?

Tell me why we should remain?

thornburyiron

If there ever was to be a second referendum because some think that voters may or may not have changed their minds since 2016 then to determine if this bears out then only those who were eligible to vote then should be allowed to vote in any second one.

chicagohammer

My problem, and to be clear I am a remainer, I do not profess to understand the full implications of leaving but looking at 50,000 ft, despite the bureaucracy and inefficiency of the EU which undoubtedly exists, in the listing of largest economies across the globe, we were and are fifth.

Only the US, China, Japan and Germany have larger economies than the UK, that tells me that overall we were doing rather well - if it was clear that we were struggling then maybe I would better understand but the truth is that is not the case.

Immigration, I understand the commitments of EU membership and it is an important issue but looking beyond the fearful headlines, we are uniquely placed as in the event of a truly extraordinary crisis where it was clear that we really needed to protect our borders, we can do so pretty much overnight, we do not have to build a wall, we have a pretty good one in place and despite the inevitable postering over protocols and treaties, there is not much that mainland Europe could do about it.

For me the best option would be to continue to fight for equitable immigration policy from within the EU.

Trade - I fail to believe that in leaving the EU, that the EU would make it easy for us, why would they ? and I simply believe that the expectation of negotiating really favorable trade deals as a stand alone entity as unrealistic.

Defense - we currently have many more admirals than ships, enough said

In a nutshell I only saw a much larger downside than upside and I never heard a real argument to make me change my mind.

Ho hum

ASLEFshrugged

In the event of a No Deal Brexit...

The UK government has committed to fund healthcare for UK nationals (and others for whom the UK is responsible) who have applied for, or are undergoing, treatments in the EU prior to and on exit day, for up to one year

After a year they'd either have to pay for their own treatment or return to the UK as would anyone who is currently not receiving treatment but who needed it after Brexit.

There are around 180k Brit pensioners living in the EU including the ex-Mrs shrugged's mother and step father, both get free prescriptions for various medical problems.

Let's not have a no-deal Brexit, eh.

imagelost

Aslef
How many are MPs or ex MPs

ASLEFshrugged

MPs have to be resident in the UK but I suppose there are probably be a few ex-MPs living permanently in the EU.

What's your point?

BubblesNeverDies

Thorn, who would vote in the place of the Leavers who have died?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html

imagelost

ASLEFshrugged said:

MPs have to be resident in the UK but I suppose there are probably be a few ex-MPs living permanently in the EU.

What's your point?

Curious

MrsGrey

thornburyiron said:

If there ever was to be a second referendum because some think that voters may or may not have changed their minds since 2016 then to determine if this bears out then only those who were eligible to vote then should be allowed to vote in any second one.

You are conflating two issues:
Finding out if people who voted one way have changed their minds since? I don't know why we need to know this, or what that has to do with how the UK conducts itself on the international stage in future. If you want the answer to the initial question, you'd have to ask them. But a referendum with restricted voting rights wouldn't tell you anyway. As Bubbles points out, some of them aren't around anymore. Furthermore, there were some eligible to vote last time who didn't. If they vote this time, you still won't know if they have changed their minds because you don't know what their minds used to be. So.... my verdict: an idea that's not fit for purpose ;biggrin

MrsGrey

2nd issue: What do people want at this point in time, in the light of current circumstances and knowledge.

I still think referenda are not a particularly good idea, but seeing as one led us to this point we probably need another to either validate or overturn the outcome.