Brexit

Vorselaarhammer

My feeling for the general election is because.

The peoples vote is never happen as we get into the whole "it's not democratic to have another vote because the first one was lost".

The only way I see getting passed that is to have a general election.

Also it will give all the parties the push to state their position, for example the SNP bang on about Scotland but 38% voted to leave... Maybe more would now...

I think 2 years on from the vote a lot of things are clearer or it's clear that what was promised can't happen.

Let the Tories split, Labour get off the fence, DUP lose their current King maker powers etc...

MrsGrey

Vorse, I think Aslef's point was that now we have fixed term parliaments, what mechanism do you envisage will force another election, and how likely is it to succeed?

Even if May wanted to, she can't just decide to have an election. She could ask MPs to vote for a snap election, but would need two thirds of all MPs to agree. (I doubt she's call a snap election - it didn't exactly work out too well last time did it? Plus even if she did, would Tory MPs vote for it?

claretandbluesky

my feeling is that the only majority in parliament at present is for a customs union and single market membership. This would get the majority to pass but it does one thing that cant ever be said out loud, which is that the referendum was a farce because you cant afford to leave, and so those that pressed their agenda only succeeded in taking our voice and have made us weaker for no gain.

claretandbluesky

The only real deal that should get the taste buds going is the Germany plus deal. The one where we have the same deal as the biggest and most powerful member but the extra benefits of not signing up to the Euro, opting out the Schengen zone, get a portion of our contributions back as a rebate and are excluded from being obliged to take in refugees as other members are.

Juxtaposed with TM's deal that should get whoops and shouts in the commons.

It is of course the deal we have now.

Vorselaarhammer

Ok Mrs Grey I understand now if thats what Aslef was saying, didnt realise the technical aspect of now calling an election...

OldCastleSwift

May is broken. Even now she's saying the same thing over and again.

And I thought she had a bad reputation as Home Secretary ;lol

BubblesNeverDies

From the BBC today:

"If no-deal is rejected, MPs will vote on Thursday on delaying Brexit by extending Article 50 - the legal mechanism that takes the UK out of the EU.
The EU has said it would need "a credible justification" before agreeing to any extension."

My question is if MPs vote to delay Brexit but the EU does not agree to any extension, is the next logical step to revoke Article 50 and would that be decided by Parliament? ;hmm

I'm guessing Aslef can answer this ;wink

MrsGrey

I see that despite having put her deal to the vote and had the answer 'No' she brought it back again yesterday, and had it voted down again. And now we hear that there might be a 3rd 'meaningful vote' - ie, she'll present the same deal again in the hope that some MPs will, based on new information and changing circumstances, finally vote Yes.

But, we can't have a new referendum, because that would be ignoring the will of the people.

;hmm

Would you like hypocrisy with your irony, or do you take it plain?

BubblesNeverDies

At a slight tangent, but perhaps explaining how we originally got into this mess, this is illuminating:
https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/the-devious-art-of-disinformation/p06dn741?playlist=a-brief-history-of

BubblesNeverDies

Boris Johnson, the former foreign secretary, claims the EU would come up with a new deal by 29 March.
In an interview on LBC Radio, he said: "I covered a lot of EU summits, I have been to a lot of them in my time, I have seen how the EU works.
"The horses always change places in the final furlong, it's always at five minutes to midnight that the real deal is done.

"In Brussels, the real fix is always in at the end."

That's quite an analogy from Boris the Buffoon, comparing Brexit with a horse race - some gamble. And this is the fool who would be PM. ;angry

Hammerex

Comparing a horse race you say Bubbles, well I can remember Foinavon
winning the 1967 Grand National at the odds of 100/1, so miracles can
happen, but most unlikely.

Yeoldhammer

Season 3 of Brexit of Thrones should be good. I hear a possibly major character being killed off politically and the fall of an alliance.

BubblesNeverDies

Yeold, I was almost questioning "politically" but then realised that was too far. ;biggrin

BubblesNeverDies

He doesn't know when to stop digging that hole, does he.
To think that he made such a difference to the Quitters' campaign disgusts me and it should have the same effect on Quitters, but sadly I know it won't. ;angry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47560192

MrsGrey

It was an utterly ridiculous thing to say.

IronHerb

But he is an utterly ridiculous person.

BubblesNeverDies

MPs vote to reject no-deal Brexit.

I was expecting an overwhelming majority in favour of this yet 308 out of 620 (49.7%) ignored all the expert forecasts of a no-deal being an economic disaster and voted for no-deal.
These are the people who are supposed to put the country first but have instead thought more of their careers. ;angry

This country and this political system are broken.

IronHerb

Why is this country broken?

OldCastleSwift

Two points of note that have made my bile rise tonight:

1. May reneging on her free vote promise yesterday and instructing her party to vote for no deal

2. Farage actively lobbying EU colleagues to veto an extension and forcing a cliff-edge no deal

Utterly despicable, IMO, given the government's own reports on the consequences of no deal.

MrsGrey

Farage.

Beyond contempt.

#snoutintrough

OldCastleSwift

MrsGrey said:

Farage.

Beyond contempt.

#snoutintrough

This is a man who tonight was criticising the 'career political class'.

He's been in politics for the last 20 years.

MrsGrey

And hardly ever carries out any of his MEP responsibilities. Apart from bank his cheque and vote for a big pension.

Barney

Surely the purpose of keeping no deal on the table is a bargaining chip. Nobody wants it but what have we got left to get a bit more from the EU.
That said I am beginning to think that no deal is better than allowing 'The House' to continue playing games for personal and political reasons.
What is the point of democracy if they dont do what has been decided by the people?

Hammerwombat

Im a bit scared and not entirely comfortable with the situation we find ourselves in. I’m not a fan of any politician, I find most of them to be joyless unpleasant sycophants, but every few years I have to vote for something or somebody. Can somebody draw me a freakin’ picture of what I have to do next.

MrsGrey

I don't know how much the threat of no deal has pushed the EU to give us favourable terms in the withdrawal agreement.

On the face of it, not too much.

But having put to parliament the very best deal the govt could wangle with ' no deal' as a threat and been told twice it's not good enough .. and with only 16 days to go...

aren't we a bit past worrying about what threat we can hold over them?

OldCastleSwift

She's trying to get her vote through again ;lol Meaningful Vote 3 now being put forward for next week.

What's the definition of insanity? ;hmm

We have some very reckless people at the head of our Parliament.

thornburyiron

As far as the EU are concerned there was never a threat of no deal because they could see every day MPs saying that no deal had to be taken off the table so they knew we didn’t really mean it.
No different to when Cameron went in 2016 and said “I want us to stay and if there’s a vote it will be to remain so you don’t really need to offer us anything”.

MrsGrey

Ocs, will be interesting to see if she is allowed to bring the same proposal back for another vote. Parliamentary rules of procedure say that if MPs vote something down, you can't just bring the same thing back again for another vote. The Speaker can apply the rules and prevent the vote.

MIAHammer

Barney said:

What is the point of democracy if they dont do what has been decided by the people?

Because sometimes the people need to be protected from themselves.

This should never have been put at the people’s door. It was too important and too complicated.

claretandbluesky

There is a question of what is the bigger threat to democracy,

I believe it's more important for democracy to send the message that if you win by promising things you cannot deliver you do not get to lift the trophy. This ends populism.


The only thing for sure is that very soon the trades descriptions people will be onto us as never have two adjectives been more inappropriately used as in 'Great' Britain and 'United' Kingdom. Utter shambles.