Brexit

Yeoldhammer

Doesn't look like there is anything good about being out of it. Even the Pro-Leave business leaders are setting up HQs outside Britain xD

OldCastleSwift

TheMadcapLaughs said:

What is SO good about the EU (the bloated autocratic bureaucratic mess, not the continent and its people) that makes us fools to leave.

This for me is the issue. The general public don't know. Nor should we be expected to. Equally, we don't know what is so bad about the EU, short of what the agenda-driven media have been telling us for years. That's why we have an elected Parliament; people that are a lot more educated on and experienced in the political nuances of what it is to be in the EU.

I studied Politics at A-Level so have a bit of an idea, but nowhere near enough to make an informed decision as to what the consequences were if we left. That's why I voted to remain.

TheMadcapLaughs

Mrs G, within the EU we have less chance of shaping our own future than out of the EU. I personally think we can become a better, more tolerant, more inclusive country out of the EU. I think we all want the same things, ultimately, I just happen to think that we have a better chance of making "good" things happen out of the EU. I`m not a fan of centralised government, I personally don`t think it works, there is plenty of evidence historically that shows it doesn`t work. I think the EU as a project is doomed to fail.
Grey, I do speak for myself and will always allow others the same courtesy. I don`t really know why you would think otherwise.
I also think I have been consistent throughout in my defence of ordinary people. You will find from the very start of our original Brexit debate that I have defended peoples reasons to vote leave however obscure or amusing. You may recall that it was insinuated in the original thread that perhaps people below a certain IQ shouldn`t have been allowed to vote at all, particularly on something "so important". Again I would have railed against those suggestions as elitist at best and abhorrent at worst. My position has never changed on that.
Total equality irrespective of gender, race, religion, physical or mental ability.

grey_til_I_dye

my defence of ordinary people

Who are they?

How do you know what they think or feel?

Who do you think use this forum?

You certainly aren't defending me from anyone or anything, and I'm pretty ordinary.

My point was that in some of your posts you write as though you speak for more than just yourself, and can divine the motivations and desires of others.

TheMadcapLaughs

OCS. But the majority of MP`s in our parliament stood on manifesto`s committed to leaving the EU. The majority of MP`s are still committed to leaving the EU. The only party that was committed to staying in the EU bombed. The whole thing has become so complicated because, well, we seem to make things so complicated.

TheMadcapLaughs

Grey, I can`t see where I have done this any more or any less than anyone else. I think when we speak in generalisations we tend to include what others may or may not be thinking, feeling or projecting. And if you are as ordinary as you say you are I would be proud to defend you if I thought you needed defending on an internet forum, a televisual programme (such as Question Time), or down the pub having a quiet drink.

grey_til_I_dye

if you are as ordinary as you say you are

How can I tell?

What criteria should I use?

OldCastleSwift

Madcap - I do wonder how many genuinely want to leave though. I mean, some could just be towing their respective party lines for the sake of their careers. And how many (and this is rhetorical) wanted to leave before the referendum?

But the bottom line for me is, I would expect an MP to be more widely versed in the workings of the EU and our role in it, and if they're committed to leave because it's genuinely in the best interests of the country, then I'm fine with that. I respect their opinion on the benefits and disadvantages of being a member of the EU more than that of Jim from Skegness who just doesn't like foreigners and believes everything the Daily Mail prints (an extreme example but I hope you see where I'm coming from). That's not to say that Jim isn't allowed an opinion; just that I believe his (as, in fact, is mine) is perhaps less informed in terms of the actual consequences of Britain leaving the EU.

I do agree though that the picture is somewhat complicated by the current make-up of our politicians, a lot of whom seem to be putting their own careers and party allegiances ahead of anything else.

TheMadcapLaughs

I was using your own descriptive criteria of "and I`m pretty ordinary".

That`s pretty much how I could tell.

I am not sure how you can tell, apart from reading your post that says "and I`m pretty ordinary" and then measuring that statement against whatever parameters you think would be appropriate in the circumstances.

If I have misinterpreted your statement "and I`m pretty ordinary" and taken it out of context than I apologise and withdraw my offer of help forthwith.

grey_til_I_dye

Sorry, Madcap, but for all your apparent dislike of the political classes, you seem to have no compunction about using their debating tactics.

You said you were defending the ordinary people.

I asked you how you identified them.

You didn't reply (as is your right.)

You then seemed to imply that I might not be as ordinary as I thought, or that I might not be ordinary enough for you, by using 'if' in your reply to me.

I know how ordinary I am by my criteria, but since you use the term, and suggest you are defending the ordinary people, I wondered what your criteria were, on account of I consider myself ordianry, and do not consider that you are defending me.

chicagohammer

Trevor Noah has a comedic skit on Brexit that did make me laugh,

There are people in Britain who voted leave blaming immigration stating that “foreigners come over here, they keep their customs, make no effort to integrate and do not even try to be British”

“Are you kidding me, think back to the British empire, what they are accusing these people of doing is the most British thing there is”

Well it made me laugh

Whitehorsehammer

IronHerb said - I wouldn't like to live in France.
I for one would and spend as much time there as I can.
I have been away for the past couple of weeks and have avoided much news about Brexit. Now back I find it hard to understand the continuing chaos with the supposed leave date only a few weeks away.

BubblesNeverDies

Madcap (to Grey)
"I would be proud to defend you if I thought you needed defending on an internet forum, a televisual programme (such as Question Time), or down the pub having a quiet drink."

Madcap, from what I have observed of Grey on this forum's discussions, he would be the least likely person to need another's defending.
As much need as a pitbull when confronted by an angry Chihuahua. ;biggrin

(Apologies Grey if I've caused embarrassment/offence)

TheMadcapLaughs

Grey, if you can`t beat `em, join `em. I was going to run in the next local elections as "defender of the ordinary people". I am now having to re-think this strategy and slogan, as if asked at the hustings: "who are these ordinary people" I will have trouble answering such a direct question. I will probably go with "for the many" as if asked to categorise such people I will simply reply that they are beyond categorisation but are more than "the few".

OCS, you are undoubtedly right, there are probably very few MP`s who genuinely want to leave the EU, which is probably a contributory factor into why they have produced such a fudge. I can fully appreciate your faith in our MP`s and the expertise that they possess, I don`t have that level of faith I`m afraid and have no problem with trusting "the people"

BubblesNeverDies

Madcap
" I personally think we can become a better, more tolerant, more inclusive country out of the EU"

In light of the numerous reported cases of intolerance towards foreigners (regardless of their national origin) since the referendum, what do you think would be a reasonable time frame for this more tolerant country to appear?

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

;nonono

Answer a direct question? What kind of politician would you be if you did that? ;wink

TheMadcapLaughs

BubblesNeverDies said:

Madcap
" I personally think we can become a better, more tolerant, more inclusive country out of the EU"

In light of the numerous reported cases of intolerance towards foreigners (regardless of their national origin) since the referendum, what do you think would be a reasonable time frame for this more tolerant country to appear?

Mrs G, there has always been a level of intolerance, and unfortunately there always will be under the current constructs of society. If, however, society was organised differently then most "hate" (in what ever form it takes) could be rendered null and void. Eradicate inequality, guarantee the basics of human need, and the basis for blame, intolerance and hate all but disappear. Sounds utopian, it is utopian, impossible to achieve within the EU (imo) how it is geared and operates, easier to achieve on a smaller scale outside of the EU. My main gripe with the EU is that it operates as big government on a big scale. That (imo) is not a good thing. As for time frame, I have no idea. Not in my lifetime anyway. As a very brief look at how society may self organise then most recently Rojava has has a pretty good stab at it:

https://www.ft.com/content/50102294-77fd-11e5-a95a-27d368e1ddf7

BubblesNeverDies

Madcap, there seems to be some confusion on your part, but I can assure you that I and MrsG are not one and the same person. ;biggrin

OutcastLondoner

TheMadcapLaughs said:

Remember Gordon and the "bigoted" lady. All ignored.

Most honest thing a politician ever said.

I don't quite understand how you can believe in anarchism but also believe in nation state borders.

TheMadcapLaughs

Outcast: May be the most honest thing a politician has ever said, but it doesn`t address her concerns and dismisses them out of hand.

I don`t believe in nation state borders, but they exist in reality. Barring us all waking up tomorrow morning to World communism they will continue to exist. It doesn`t mean that we can`t change the way we do things on this little bit of the planet, and if the rest of the planet continues its ill judged path, then we would possibly need to defend our "autonomous security line".

As for my belief in Anarchism, it is no different to you calling yourself a Muslim, Jeremy Corbyn calling himself a Socialist, and Oswald Mosley calling himself a Fascist. Incongruous as it may sound, but Anarchism is a belief system. It is a hugely diverse belief system, if your starting point is the "sovereignty of the individual" then it is bound to be. I am also a Communist. Thankfully there is a train of thought that marries the rights of the individual with the aspirations of Communism. A very clever chap, Peter Kropotkin, explained the principles and the philosophy in a number of books and pamphlets. Unfortunately, the term Anarchist has been forever sullied by its constant (deliberate) misuse.

OutcastLondoner

I'm not disputing your belief in anarchism or making a comment on the ideology at all, I mean that doesn't all this talk about limiting movement run opposite to the rights of individuals - to move.

TheMadcapLaughs

I have no problem with people moving across borders, I believe that to be a good thing. From my own personal perspective there will, however, always be ifs and buts. It is a tricky subject. Suffice to say, as a species, we are social beings. We have the ability to think and act for ourselves, we have the ability to self determine, we are all different and should be respected for that, but we are, for want of a better expression, warm blooded mammals. Our natural proclivity is social, we are social, not solitary beings. We are more likely to cooperate than compete (despite what we are taught). As cooperative social beings we have developed as naturally empathetic, we care for, we nurture, we protect. If, for instance, my commune was threatened by "anti-social" elements from a neighbouring commune, if people threatened the safety and security of my commune I would have no compunction in restricting entry, I.E. restricting their free movement. Humans are not perfect beings, we are fallible. There is no such thing as perfect freedom, there will always be limits, but for the vast majority of people acting within the realms of common human decency, you should be as free to pitch up whenever and wherever you like.

TheMadcapLaughs

Two things, sorry to use the word "commune" a little hippy dippy I suppose, but I didn`t want to use country because that takes away the personal/human perspective. And secondly, Trumps 2000 mile wall is a nonsense, I think we would probably agree on that.

BubblesNeverDies

Been quiet here lately, so here's a little musical entertainment. I don't think it's been posted or mentioned on here before.

The latest offering from Quitters' hero Jake Reet-Smug:

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1092740115716362241

;lol

MrsGrey

She's just announced that the 'meaningful vote' scheduled for next week in Parliament has been cancelled.

By 12th March, now, apparently.

;doh

Asked what she would do if she lost the meaningful vote, she said: “Why is it that people are always trying to look for the next thing after the next thing after the next thing? “It is pointless, we should focus on what we are doing now,

And that's leadership, is it? Or dereliction of duty? ;hmm

OutcastLondoner

Maybe because the next thing is now only only two weeks before the big next thing that we probably should be trying look at...

Cuz1

If we look at the next big thing after that maybe we will see the bigger picture

OldCastleSwift

"We should focus on what we're doing now"

Which is running down the clock and trying to force Parliament into accepting a deal that has already been voted down.

The only thing she's leading is this country into a deep, dark hole, IMO.

claretandbluesky

I will be very sad if the EU bail her out and give her anything, If she and the hard liners in her party such as Rees Mogg etc insist on sticking to their leaving without a deal position they should have their bluff called and be forced to either go through with it and cause pain that they will have to own, or back down and recognise they had no negotiating hand as many of us thought, and so are accepting a deal on the EU's terms.

This also allows their narrative that we will prosper when the buffoon Liam Fox is allowed to sign these glorious free trade deals with other countries that await us to be seen through. If the UK has no leverage in this negotiation they will have even less when dealing with the US or Japan, especially as we will be reduced to begging.

It seems more and more that we will deserve all we get.

BubblesNeverDies

C&B
"the buffoon Liam Fox"

You're being extremely kind if I may say so. ;biggrin

I have some other expressions that would fit better, but I would probably get expelled from the site. ;biggrin