The relegation battle - get out of my league!

jay_in_cpt

OldCastleSwift said:

I guess

jay_in_cpt said:

OldCastleSwift said:

What irks me is had it not been for Madley's horror show v Bournemouth and Antonio's brain-fade against Palace, we'd be sat on 39 points and home and hosed ;angry

Think Hart must come into those equations!

Jay ;ok There's an argument that every player has made a mistake that has resulted in us conceding and potentially losing points.

In Antonio's case, however, we were literally seconds away from the three points. If he had held on to the ball we'd have won that game, no question. And had Madley been competent and disallowed Wilson's goal as he should have then Im sure we'd have won that one too.

OCS ;ok
Have to agree that particular game still haunts me !...

sweepy23

Ok so I’m still not sure about us staying up. A lot still to play for and I believe we’ll need 2 points.

However looking forward to the end of the season, I believe there a few reasons to be better spirited:

1) West Brom are going down. A team that has been hard to beat and in the prem for a few seasons. Being replaced by a weaker team
2) Stoke are pretty much down. Even more than a bonus compared to West Brom.
3) I think we have a good base of players to build on. Best squad for a long time.
4) The board have to get the cheque book. Under big pressure to spend and spend well.
5) whatever you think about Moyes he knows he has to deliver. He’ll work all off season to make things happen. Hope so!
6) the word cup

Fortuneseeker

sweepy,

1) West Brom being replaced by Wolves!
4) The Board don't have to do anything, much as we would like them to, they haven't spent to the level we had hoped for.
5) Moyes has some quality at his disposal but appears reluctant to use it to our benefit. Javier Hernandez he sold when at Manchester United and can see him doing so again so unsure he can be trusted to make the right decisions.

SuzanneClaret

ClaretandBlueforLife said:

SuzanneClaret said:

Klopp gets away with being rude and disrespectful because the press think he’s a right card.

He’s not.



It was amusing though that WBA managed to put a plaster on a bullet wound against Liverpool.

Respect to Klopp who has improved Liverpool and gets my respect regardless of the press thinking “he’s a right card”
#respectwheredue imo

Manager P W D L F A Win %
Klopp 108 54 31 23 196 121 50.0
Rodgers 108 59 23 26 225 135 54.6

Giant_Hammer

Okey dokey,
Here's a little comparison of our premier league performances since season 2012.
We have broken top 10 twice ie 10th once in our first season back in the prem and 7th in the first Payet season which I think most of us agree was a weird season as far as the top clubs were concerned so arguably it's a bit skewed. I know that final league positions would on the face of it look as though we aren't normally in danger of relegation but it generally certainly doesn't feel like that as the seasons wear on. At least it doesn't to me.

Also it doesn't look like we are making much, if any, inroads into the club progressing to any degree. In fact my own view for what it's worth is that, at best, we are standing still and here we are with a flirtation with relegation. I confess that short of a sugar daddy buying the club I can't see any way things will change at least for the foreseeable future.

The stats below are irrefutable but my reading of them is my own opinion and although I'm sure some of you wont agree with me I really don't want to get embroiled in any arguments over it.


Season W. D. L. Goals for and against. Diff. Points. Position
12/13. 12. 10. 16. 45/53.......................... -8. 46. 10
13/14. 11. 7. 20. 40/51.......................... -11. 40. 13
14/15. 12. 11. 15. 44/47.......................... -3. 47. 12
15/16. 16. 14. 8. 65/51.......................... +14. 62. 7
16/17. 12. 9. 17. 47/64.......................... -17. 45. 11
17/18. 8. 11. 15. 42/63.......................... -21. 35. 15

Giant_Hammer

Sorry everyone, the stats seem to have gone out of align ment but I hope you can still understand them. ;biggrin

Lukerz

Interesting Giant ;ok

Certainly the last two seasons have been bad with the club showing no real progress, in fact we are regressing.

3 of those seasons we were pretty comfy (2012/13, 2014/15 and 2015/16). The other three we have basically been in a relegation battle for most of it. 2013/14 we were until we won 4 on the spin in February.

But the last two seasons have been the big alarm bells. 7th in the final season at the Boleyn to 11th and now 15th since moving to the LS. Needs to be addressed before we go down. We'll end up being like Villa and Sunderland. Several seasons where the warning signs were there, not addressed and then the inevitable relegation.

OldCastleSwift

So an average league position of 11th since promotion.

Not too bad on the face of it.

But it does suggest that we are a bang average Premier League team, which I think most of us accept. Two problems for me, however:

1. Based on the last two seasons, that have involved two relegation scraps, we appear to be regressing.

2. Bang average at the Boleyn felt ok. It's all I've been used to. Bang average in a stadium that I don't like against a back drop of unachievable ambition of the part of the board, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

baracks_a_hammer

What we have to consider also is the fact that now the PL has become highly skewed. I saw a comment which said that outside of the top six there was “nothing” and any of the remaining 14 could easily get relegated. Interesting point.

OldCastleSwift

Baracks ;ok

It's good that the big 4 has now become the Big 6, but I agree, outside of that you're left playing for the hope of 7th place being enough Europa League qualification.

Which makes me wonder why more clubs (like us) don't go all out for a cup, as that represents our only real chance of success. Most clubs, however, seems to sacrifice that opportunity to concentrate staying in a league that, realistically, they can't compete in (other than to stay in it) ;hmm

All about the money though I guess.

grey_til_I_dye

OCS

But clubs towards the further end of cup competitions do pretty much go all out for it. And mostly they lose out to one of the 'top 6'.

In earlier stages, it is a decent opportunity to give squad players or younger players a game.

In the end, I don't think it would matter how 'all out' any club went for a cup; there is no way of controlling the draw, and in the latter stages you are likely to come up against one or more of the top teams.

I think you could put a squad together to have a reasonable expectation of finishing upper mid-table, but not to win a cup, which, for all bar one of the top teams, will be their only chance of silverware in any season.

baracks_a_hammer

I saw another comment yesterday

“Horrible season, horrible football - get rid”

This from a supporter of a club with 10 more points than us - I think you can guess the club

;lol

OldCastleSwift

I get your point Grey, but I would argue that there's a consensus within the football community that clubs make staying in the Premier League a priority over progression in the cups. I would certainly put us in that category this season.

I know it's almost inevitable that the West Hams and Newcastles of this world will meet a Man City or Liverpool in the later stages, and that our chances of actually winning a trophy are pretty slim, but I can't help but think that Premier League survival will always take priority.

I don't know, sometimes I think I'd rather we did a Wigan; win a trophy and be relegated, rather than win nothing and just bob around half-way up the league season after season. But that may be because I was six months old the last time we won a major trophy and have absolutely no recollection of it.

Yeoldhammer

Those 11th 12th 13th 15th place finishes were probably 1 or 2 points from being 5 places lower.

We moved stadiums to enable us to better that difference not just position wise but point wise, that we should be sitting where Burnley are currently, that come the end of the season we are a good 10 points ahead of the 'Majority' of "the rest." with maybe 1 or 2 close for comfort like an Everton and Leicester.

Instead we are trailing wayyyyy behind to the point of questioning why we bothered moving stadiums as there has been on the whole zero benefit other than an increased capacity at a significant viewing disadvantage.

grey_til_I_dye

But being a football supporter IS pointless, so I don't see how it can get MORE pointless.

I don't support West Ham in the expectation of success.

I don't support West Ham in the expectation of progressive improvement.

I don't support West Ham because I feel entitled to flowing football, or a major say in how the club is run.

I support West Ham because I can't help it.

If I could help it, I would stop, and remove one of the very few sources of angst and frustration from my generally remarkably contented existence.

if people can walk away from the club because they've got the hump with the owners/manager/colour scheme/lack of traditional food vendors in the vicinity of the stadium/other... good for them.

I'm not there yet, and don't suppose I ever will be.

baracks_a_hammer

This will be the problem that will rage on - we have gone from being relegation candidates in an owned stadium to relegation candidates in a rented athletics stadium. There will be continued discontent unless

a ) the daves invest in a manager who is a significant step up and back him to the tune of £100m

Or

b ) they sell up and give someone else a go who has far deeper pockets

Problem with a ) is I don’t believe they have the financial muscle - plus there are no guarantees of an outcome as is proven by the Everton case.

IronHerb

Yeoldhammer said:

Those 11th 12th 13th 15th place finishes were probably 1 or 2 points from being 5 places lower.

No. We would not have dropped more than two places if we had achieved two points less.

Giant_Hammer

Grey said


I support West Ham because I can't help it.

If I could help it, I would stop, and remove one of the very few sources of angst and frustration from my generally remarkably contented existence.

if people can walk away from the club because they've got the hump with the owners/manager/colour scheme/lack of traditional food vendors in the vicinity of the stadium/other... good for them.

I'm not there yet, and don't suppose I ever will be.

And therein lies the rub. I'm exactly the same.
;weep

ASLEFshrugged

A quick reality check

We're not Sunderland who have plummeted two tiers in two seasons

We're not Leyton Orient who went from a penalty kick away from the Championship to the Conference in three seasons

We're not Leeds who went from losing a 2001 Champions League semi against Valencia to losing the 2008 League 1 playoff final to Doncaster Rovers and haven't played in the Premier League for 14 seasons

Being a Hammer isn't so bad

OldCastleSwift

ASLEFshrugged said:

A quick reality check

We're not Sunderland who have plummeted two tiers in two seasons

Yet... ;whistle

chicagohammer

“We were never ridiculous...........

I have never forgotten the very first big screen at Upton Park, it looked like the front window at Rediffusion where someone had stacked 12 tellies together to make a cube.

And don,t get me started on the Hammerettes........ ;wink

Lukerz

This weekend really is massive. We blew our chance to take the pressure off v Stoke, which meant a point at Arsenal would've been invaluable. We blew that too.

I think we can all agree we expect to lose to Man City, and it could be a scary result. They had nothing to play for last weekend and hammered Swansea 5-0.

So with no points and a possible battering to our GD again, it means that a victory for Saints and we are in massive trouble. We all expect Stoke to not win at Anfield and WBA are gone. Swansea have Chelsea, but winnable games after that. Huddersfield have Everton, but losable games to follow.

I think the general feel is that we are quite calm at the moment, but I really feel we are in massive trouble following our failure to beat Stoke. Imagine had Carroll not scored in the last minute either? Personally I think we're relying on Huddersfield losing their remaining four games to stay up. Of course, victory at Leicester would do the job. But I can see us taking only 2 points max from our remaining four. Would 37 be enough? I can also see us losing the next three and really don't want a final day decider against Sam.

But Saints vs Bournemouth is massive for us. I think if Saints fail to win, it leaves them 5/6 points behind with 3 to go (Everton away, Swansea home, Man City home). I don't see them taking 5/6 points from that. They've won twice in the league since October. But I'd say if you are in the relegation battle, and you have any fixtures against either Watford or Bournemouth, you are laughing, because I think they are the perfect two sides to play.

grey_til_I_dye

37 would certainly do it, imo.

Can Soton get 8 from 12? Shouldn't think so.

36 will probably do it.

At the moment, they just need 2 wins to catch us.

With an extra point, they'd need 2 wins and a draw.

35 might well do it, given that they finish against Citeh.

IronHerb

Wouldn't say City had nothing to play for as they confirmed the Championship. Mind they were cruising.

thornburyiron

City have everything to play for. They can possibly set about four PL season records and the first of these is most goals scored. I think they're on 98 at the moment and fully expect them to be on at least 100 come tea time Sunday.

OldCastleSwift

Lukerz ;ok

I'm not comfortable at all with how things are. I honestly think we'll lose the next three, and I hate the thought of going into the Everton game needing something, particularly as Rooney owns us.

It actually feels like we're under more pressure than Southamptom. It's like they have nothing to lose given they're already in the drop zone, so they have to go all out against Bournemouth.

We, on the other hand, know that we can probably scrape by with a couple of draws, so may be looking to play not to lose rather than going for the win in our remaining games.

Given how fresh the memory of being relegated with 42 points is, I'm certainly not comfortable that 35 will be enough.

Lukerz

;ok OCS

I feel genuinely fearful of our status.

Many a team has been awful all season and then had a mini run of 3/4 games at the end and stayed up.

I just have this fear with Southampton because, on paper, they are a reasonable side. Stoke I am not worried about. Just Saints, and Swansea have a reasonable run of games too. So I worry it’s down to us to secure our status (as it should be), but I don’t trust us to do it.

sweepy23

Personally if we are still int he mire by the time we play Leicester then that is the game we need to get the points. They don't have an agenda against us, and they are safe. If we turn up we can beat them.

I actually think it will be harder to beat Everton on the last day if we are still among it. Everton will be well up for it because of Moyes, Allardyce would love it and our players could be very nervous. Let's hope it doesn't come to it.

Also now that the Saints are out of the cup, the players will be a lot more focused. I always think players don't want to get suspended/injured before a trip to Wembley. I can see their league performances being vastly improved.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

If we beat Stoke we wouldnt be in this situation

Dont expect anything from the next 3, and we are going to survive based on others being worse

Not ideal

Hammerex

A draw on the last day against Everton may hopefully be just be enough to save us.