Summer 2017 Transfer: The final countdown and the fallout

IronHerb

Lukerz said:

So we currently have a squad of 22 and that includes Makasi and Henry. Neither of whom are likely to ever be involved in a match day 18.

So a squad of 20 senior pros. Which is at 18 for the minute due to Carroll's fitness and Arnie's ban.

Bare bones.

We have a squad of 23 that doesn't include Makasi and Henry.

SuzanneClaret

#maths

Lukerz

IronHerb said:

Lukerz said:

So we currently have a squad of 22 and that includes Makasi and Henry. Neither of whom are likely to ever be involved in a match day 18.

So a squad of 20 senior pros. Which is at 18 for the minute due to Carroll's fitness and Arnie's ban.

Bare bones.

We have a squad of 23 that doesn't include Makasi and Henry.

I count 22 including Henry and Makasi.

Lukerz

Antonio, Michail Gregory*
Arnautovic, Marko
Ayew, Andre Morgan Rami
Byram, Samuel Mark*
Carroll, Andrew Thomas*
Collins, James Michael*
Cresswell, Aaron*
Fonte, Jose Miguel
Hart, Charles Joseph John*
Henry, Doneil Jor-Dee Ashley
Hernandez Balcazar, Javier
Kouyate, Cheikhou
Lanzini, Manuel
Makasi, Kusu Moses*
Masuaku Kawela, Fuka-Arthur
Noble, Mark James*
Obiang Avomo, Pedro Mba
Ogbonna, Obinze Angelo
Reid, Winston Wiremu
Sakho, Diafra
San Miguel Del Castillo, Adrian
Zabaleta Girod, Pablo Javier

= 22, 20 if you remove the two who will never get games.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Hart (HG)
Adrian

Zabaleta
Byram (HG)
Reid
Ogbonna
Fonte
Collins (HG)
Henry
Cresswell (HG)
Masuaka

Noble (HG)
Kouyate
Obiang
Makasi (HG)

Antonio (HG)
Ayew
Lanzini
Arnautovic

Hernandez
Carroll (HG)
Sakho

8 HG players
14 Foreign players
22 overall not including Fernandes, Rice, Martinez etc who are u21

OldCastleSwift

Balcazar. I like that.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Beat me to it

I think the midfield and attacking midfielders look the lightest in terms of numbers

This does however open up the opportunity for youth

Rice has been given a chance, Fernandes has been used a lot also year, the club seem to rate Martinez as highly as we do and Nathan Holland shone during preseason and has kept this form up for the u23s

I'm not thrilled about it but this crop of youth is as good as it's been for a good while and you want to think they can do a decent job

Koeman and Pochettino get a lot of credit for utilising their youth players so hopefully Bilic can do the same (although after last year I have reservations about Bilic playing youth)

baracks_a_hammer

What about that 18 year old we've just signed in this window?

Lukerz

Oh yeah, forgot Fernandes. He's under the age. So 21 then. Plus Makasi, Henry, Rice and Martinez. None of whom are gonna be involved too much.

Martinez and Rice aren't senior pros though. Don't expect them to muster 10 games between them. Rice was used to highlight to the board we needed a new CM, IMO.

But the point I was making is we had an additional 5 places available to fill, and didn't. So included Makasi and Henry just to boost it a bit.

The squad is thin.

Moojor

So the bloke who was at the time playing for his national side wasn't around to be checked he was available to play and be fit?

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

Lukerz tbf i think everyone knows the squad is thin

Think that's why everyone is upset with BOTH the board and the manager

The thing is given Bilic has a history of turning down moves (see iheanacho, hogan) it wouldn't shock me if he turned down the psg guy and Sanchez, 2 players that would easily enhance this side.

Lukerz

True.

But if he has a number one target, Carvalho, and then the board don't get it done for whatever reason, and they say 'what about these two instead', he has every right to say, 'no, I wanted Carvalho, if we can't sign him then don't bother'.

He'd obviously rather not sign inferior alternatives and prefer to stick to what he knows.

WHU_Champo_league_in_7_years

I guess that's true but at the same time if he thought that the position was so needed he was willing to spend £35mil on then he must've thought of the idea of a stop gap like a loan deal

He also must know that his job is under threat so should take what he can get

Also for a comparison, this is City's squad who many think have the strongest squad and are favorites for the title

Aguero Del Castillo, Sergio
Bravo Munoz, Claudio Andres
Da Silva, Danilo Luiz
De Bruyne, Kevin
Delph, Fabian*
Gundogan, Ilkay
Jimenez Silva, David Josue
Kompany, Vincent
Luiz Roza, Fernando
Mangala, Eliaquim
Mendy, Benjamin
Mota Veiga de Carvalho E Silva, Bernardo
Otamendi, Nicolas
Santana de Moraes, Ederson
Sterling, Raheem Shaquille*
Stones, John*
Toure, Gnegneri Yaya
Walker, Kyle Andrew*

I count that at 18 with various youth prospects
I know there quality is way beyond ours but think you can use smaller squads and still succeed

IronHerb

I don't think Henry is in the 1st team squad and he is recovering from an ACL.
Haksabanovic and Rice are in the squad.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Lukerz said:

It is a statement purely to say 'don't be angry at us, the Carvahlo deal was Sporting's fault and the fact we signed no alternative, well that was the managers fault.'

This....

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Hamstew said:

At least some more of our youth will get games.

I wouldn't bank on it....but if they do let's hope they don't get slaughtered if they make mistakes like poor rice did

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Something doesn't add up for me....

We've seen Sullys side of the story regarding Carvalho, all we've seen from SL is media reports not actual quotes, be interesting if they do actually speak out about what went on? They've been reported that they never got a concrete bid.

Sully says that they came to us late on deadline day to accept our original offer and we couldn't make it happen and wouldn't spend that money on a player without a medical?

While I agree you wouldn't want to do that....

A) can't you sign a player and get paperwork submitted to PL subject to a medical? (Yes you can just found it)

you've just seen the said player represent his country!! (I realise there is more to a medical then just crossing the white line)

C) you signed Andy Carroll when he had a known injury, no?

;hmm

baracks_a_hammer

SCHB

When doing bullets using letters you need to put a space between "B" and ")" otherwise you end up with a cool dude emoji figure wearing sunglasses

;lol

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Ha ha

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Make of this what you will, the supposed Sporting director on his Facebook account followed by the translation

MrsGrey

Izzy

On A, there's still a deadline, even if it gves you a little bit longer.
B - you answered it yourself.

C - But he'd had a proper medical when we loaned him the year before, so they knew there were no underlying problems like a heart murmur, or scar tissue on muscular injuries etc. And he'd been under medical supervision at the club for the ongoing injury, so medical-wise, the club had all the relevant info.

With Carvalho, the situation is very different.

baracks_a_hammer

I know as West Ham supporters we should take the side of our owners, but you have to say, that is pure genius from the SL representative...

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Mrs G sorry but I'm not buying it, could be SL telling porkies but someone is.

You can agree a deal subject to a medical



Whose to say what could've happened in a year with Carroll? You can develop stuff and as I said I know there's more to a medical than just current injuries.

;ok

I'm extremely frustrated with the club right now, they had a good start to the window, they put a manager in this position again and now the fanbase has turned on someone who was regarded as one of us (to a point). If he's involved in all of these shenanigans then he's too blame as well but right now we're about 2-3 injuries and/or suspensions from a really really difficult season.

I really hope he turns this round but I'm pretty much done with them

MrsGrey

;hmm

You can agree a deal subject to a medical

Yes, but agreeing a deal isn't the same as signing the paperwork and sending it in.

Surely 'clubs would want to get the medicals done before signing off on the paperwork otherwise it could be a risk' imply that if you register the paperwork withut a medical, the results of the (subsequent ) medical can't be used to void it?


I know we see often reported 'agreed subject to a medical' but that's usually at the earlier stage where a deal is agreed in principal but not officially signed until the medical results are satisfactory (eg Sakho to WBA).

I mean, in the scenario you are suggesting, a transfer could be agreed, signed, paperwork sent in... then 3 weeks afterwards, the player breaks a leg, club says ''Oh yeah, we've just done the medical and we don't want him any more....'

tbh I really can't see how, once the paperwork is in, a medical can be done at any time thereafter and its findings used to revoke an agreed transfer. The players registration has already been transferred to the new club.

I don't know where you were quoting from? Is it 'official' or someone's interpretation of the rules? But I think you've got it wrong.

;hmm

Hamstew

But at least the club isn't run like a circus anymore ;clown

thornburyiron

For late deals in the PL the "Deal Sheet" as it is known can only be used in the final two hours of the window ie between 9 and 11 pm on Thursday. It is one sheet of paper completed by both clubs and signed by the player also and states that a deal has been agreed, the fee involved and the players wages. If this reaches the FA in time and is approved then the official paperwork can be submitted up until 1 am. The deal sheet can stipulate subject to medical and can be called off if the buying club is not happy with an aspect of the medical. However they don't have to complete a medical at all and can do it any time they choose but it would be risky to do it much after he joins.
Unless sporting accepted the fee a few minutes before 11 I find it odd that they and Carvalho couldn't sign the sheet and fax it to Sully to sign and get it in. That would give them 2 hours to complete the formal paperwork. Carvalho could have the medical next week sometime or even at the Portuguese training camp. If we don't like it, it's called off. The Ox had his done at the England camp.
I still don't get the "they accepted our original offer" bit as I thought we'd upped it a couple if times.

MrsGrey

But thorn, are you sure that if the official paperwork goes in by 1, you can cancel the deal at any time thereafter?

Who owns the player's registration after 1am?

;hmm Doesn't sound right. I still think it means that the Deal Sheet can go in by 11pm (or whatever the window deadline happens to be) to buy you a couple of extra hours of time to sort out other stuff, but that what's done by 1pm stays done. So in WHs case, if they won't take Carvalho without a medical, they'd have had until 1 to get it done and the final papers submitted. (I'm not even sure you can back out of the deal between 11pm and 1am. I'd like to see something official about this rather than other people's interpretations and explanations. It's complicated, clearly, so I don't assume some other bod has any better grasp of it than we do.)

Of course you can do a medical after that, or even not at all. I'm not disagreeing with you on that. BUT, I believe that all the risk is on the buying club, as there's no way back.

Once a player's registration is transferred to a new club, it can't be transferred again until the next transfer window opens. And if it isn't transferred, it can't be, after the transfer widow shuts.
--

Yes, he could have had it done at the training camp - I think the difference is that Oxlade Chamberlain was at the England training camp, along with the English medical team. Carvalho was in a match stadium some distance from the Portuguese training camp, where in any case there was an unknown (to us) medical team. I can quite see how a buying club might want at least their own club doctor present to witness the medical. Due diligence and all that. And (if my interpretation is right that the deal is set in stone at 1am, medical or no medical), that if DS wanted the medical done before the transfer was finalised, it would have been not easy to achieve.
---

re the explanation you set out, about the Deal Sheet etc - have you got a link to an official source? Is it in the Uefa rules? PL rules?

MrsGrey

From the PL website:

Deal sheets – The deal sheet allows a club to confirm that a deal has been reached and to allow for additional time to submit the remaining documentation.

The sheet ...needs to arrive fully completed before the transfer window closes. Once the sheet arrives, clubs have an additional two hours after the window closes to submit the full paperwork. But if a club are looking to complete an international transfer, they still have to comply with the FIFA TMS of deadline of midnight.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/60177

Supports my interpretation, that a deal can't be voided after the 1am final deadline.

Slaven_Cups_His_Beard

Bit naughty I know but you have to ;lol

West Ham owners - "Sporting are too hard to deal with"

Watford signed their LB
Leicester signed their captain
Brighton signed their RB.

baracks_a_hammer

I've read that Renato Sanches was ranked amongst the three worst players last season for Bayern by Lotthar Mattheus

Now I know being amongst the 3 worst at Bayern is probably broadly equivalent to being amongst the 3 best at West Ham, however, maybe this might be amongst the reasons Slav didn't want him?? ;hmm