Brexit

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  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    OCS, very good point, this is what makes the whole thing so difficult. I do agree with Mr & Mrs G to an extent, and:

    If it's a lie, it's a lie.

    It it's made as a statement of fact, and it's not true, it's false.

    No debate, no quibbling.

    seems irrefutable, but:

    JEREMY CORBYN IS AN ANTI SEMITE.

    Fake news?

    Who is telling the truth in the Jussie Smollett case?

    I get the fact that fabricating a video to show a fake assault by a fake refugee on a fake WW2 hero (for instance) would shock most people. But at the same time all of us will happily sit and watch a ten minute party political broadcast by the Change UK party.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited April 2019
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Fake news is when someone publishes outright lies.

    And the bible is.....................?

    Fake news for one is gospel to another. I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to fake news, by the way, faking photos, publishing false facts/figures etc etc etc. But the lines are very blurred and, well, see Valiant above. :ok:

    Can you prove that the events listed in the gospels (or any other part of the bible) DIDN'T happen?

    Yes, there are a lot of historical inaccuracies but then the gospels were written about 50-100 years after the events by people who weren't actual eyewitnesses and there's plenty written today about events in recent history that is inaccurate.

    We all have beliefs, call it religion, philosophy or politics and we are all manipulated by what we read.

    For example there are currently people gluing themselves to trains, they believe that will raise awareness of climate change and will convince more people to demand a more vigorous approach in environmental policy from government/s. I happen to think it won't make one iota of difference, that its childish adolescent rebellion and might actually alienate more people than it will convince but hey, I'm just a train driver.

    Opinion, belief, call it what you will.
  • chicagohammerchicagohammer
    My takeaway, there are people gluing themselves to trains We really are doomed :doh:
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    All very interesting, but missing the point of what I was saying about FB.

    They don't refuse to remove fake news because deciding what is fake news 'is complicated'.

    In fact, they are happy to accept that certain things are indeed fake news.

    'Yep, right, that's fake all right' - they say. 'The picture was photoshopped to show Megan Marke marching in an IRA funeral procession, and it deffo never happened.'

    Then what do they do about it? They use an algorithm that simply moves the fake news down the priority list a bit.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    edited April 2019
    People gluing themselves to trains?
    chicagohammer said:

    My takeaway, there are people gluing themselves to trains We really are doomed :doh:

    It`s overcrowding Chicago, been happening a while over here, not enough rolling stock, so people glue themselves to trains now just to get to work. That`s privatisation for you. Country, dogs.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    Perhaps if we take it out of our relatively tame context of Brexit, the importance of stopping fake news becomes more obvious. It has fuelled lynchings in Sri Lanka and genocide in Myanmar. A clear, direct and immediate link to violence.

    It might be difficult to work out what is fake and what isn't but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be dealt with. It isn't a difficult position to take.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Outcast :ok: Also read some horrific stories out of India. Agree, easy position to take, almost impossible to solve. Would be easy if the internet was uninvented. But as none of us are Luddites, and yearn for simpler times, then I think we will just have to lump it.
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret

  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    Margaret Beckett says that unless Corbyn backs a second referendum Labour could lose the Euro Elections to Farage's Brexit Party.

    So what? Does it matter who gets elected MEPs in May if we leave the EU in October?

    Also a lot of talk from Rees-Mogg & co about the UK using the veto as a bargaining tool while we're still in the EU but as the latest Private Eye reveals there are only three issues we could use the veto on this year.

    Sanctions on Russia which the UK supports, the European Defence Fund which the UK wants to have access to after Brexit and EU common defence projects which have already been agreed.

    The big one, the EU 7-year budget, won't be up until next year by which time we'll have either left or will have given up on leaving.
  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Outcast :ok: Also read some horrific stories out of India. Agree, easy position to take, almost impossible to solve. Would be easy if the internet was uninvented. But as none of us are Luddites, and yearn for simpler times, then I think we will just have to lump it.

    No, I don't think so. You don't put up with something because you can't solve it, you fight it along the way. You invest time and resources into trying to verify what is fake and isn't. You develop warning systems so that social posts can be detected and identified when going viral at a rapid rate so they can be investigated quickly - which should be easy when we have algorithms that can so efficiently target what they want us to see. Reacting will have to happen at different rates - a potential incitement to lynching will need rapid action while political ads can maybe take a few days.

    As technology advances we have to advance with it, not just accept what it throws at us.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-brexit-group-covered-up-its-targeting-of-right-wing-extremists?fbclid=IwAR3Q1tS18VDW9lyCXoMzg9XtcZL9Uu-nUPrYQXZiBG0ABrQ7oBToek3f4_U
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    I wish I had your optimism. It`s not that I disagree, an open incitement to violence should be taken down. With the volume of "stuff" out there I just can`t see the good guys ever keeping up. From what I understand, a lot of the extreme stuff is also either hidden, coded, or possibly too "subtle" for algorithms to recognise. And again, it`s not always the obvious fake news that leads to violence or extremism. The BBC can quite openly brand Jeremy Corbyn as an anti semite, does that endanger Jeremy Corbyn?

    I was also being a little flippant in an earlier comment in regards to technology. I, personally, would quite happily see the internet crash and burn. I am not sure whether some of the latest technology can be classified as "advances" and our struggle to "advance" with it sounds a bit of a misnomer to me. I do realise I am in a very small (but growing) minority with this view, but, (imo) the majority of technological "advances" produce the exact opposite. Instead of enriching our lives and advancing civilized society (which imo is the point) it appears to alienate and fracture.

    The drive for technological advance should be to improve peoples lives. I think this has got lost, we are producing pointless technology, technology for profit. Rather than "advancing" with technology and looking for solutions to the problems it throws at us, why not take a step backwards and ask if the whole damn thing is worth it at all. Do the benefits of the internet outweigh the negatives?

    As this is the brexit thread: Leave Means Leave.

    I must dash, I have an Amazon delivery due.
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    The same channel 4 that is obsessed with nudity and shows programs such as Naked Attraction and this week had a program on school swap where they deliberately had 15 white kids put into a class of 15 Asian kids and encouraged both groups to treat the other as aliens. They were also encouraged to compile lists of the most vile racist insults they could muster.
    I wouldn’t trust channel 4 news at all. It’s even worse than the BBC
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited April 2019
    So, thorn, you think that Channel 4 reporters are lying?

    You don't believe that Aaron Banks and Leave.eu did what was alleged?

    Are you saying that Channel 4 made up the evidence?

    (I'm assuming you took the trouble to watch the video.)
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    thornburyiron said:

    The same channel 4 that is obsessed with nudity and shows programs such as Naked Attraction and this week had a program on school swap where they deliberately had 15 white kids put into a class of 15 Asian kids and encouraged both groups to treat the other as aliens. They were also encouraged to compile lists of the most vile racist insults they could muster.

    I'm not sure why this programme would make Channel 4 'untrustworthy'?

    (Out of curiosity, did you watch he programme? I haven't, but have read various reviews, so I'm aware of some of the content and some of the controversy).
  • thornburyironthornburyiron
    I watched part of the program but stopped because I thought the whole premise was pointless and did not serve any purpose.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    I understood the premise to be (or at least the aim of the experiment to see if) that if you got people together they might realise that some of their (racist, and other) preconceptions were false?
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr G. I think that Aaron Banks is a particularly odious character, and I would think the vast, vast majority of leave voters would agree. However, to me, Blair, Mandelson and Campbell are equally odious, and it could be argued that they have the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands. Odious or not, Farage, who had a close relationship with Banks (but has now distanced himself) in a recent Yougov poll came out ahead of Labour, The Tories, the Libdems etc etc etc with Change UK (please!) languishing in last place. Rather than trying to discredit (not aimed at you) and smear the leave campaign and voters why don`t the current incumbents (ALL MAIN SITTING PARTIES INCLUDING THE SNP) come out with some positive solutions. Cancelling Brexit and going back to how we were/are is madness. But that is what the vast majority of them seem to want.

    Happy Easter :champagne:
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    I don't see it as smearing, if it is reporting the truth, and if it is discrediting, then that is probably the point.

    I would have thought those who claim an interest in the state of democracy in the UK would be seriously concerned by such reports.
  • imagelostimagelost
    edited April 2019
    What about the remainers that was trying to get voters to tick the box in pencil,?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Well, yeah. Otherwise what were we going to do with the 3 million people we had hired to fake all the ballot papers in advance of the count? Not to mention the 6 million rubbers :nonono:
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    imagelost said:

    What about the remainers that was trying to get voters to tick the box in pencil,?


    But seriously, this never happened.

    it was Brexiters who urged voters to use a pen (based on a conspiracy theory).

    Nobody said voters should use pencil.

    Voting booths traditionally provide pencils to use, but voters have always been able to use their own pen, pencil or, indeed, crayon.

    Remainers absolutely didn't ever urge voters to use any particular implement.

    #fakenews
  • imagelostimagelost
    edited April 2019
    So my wife lied to me!
    About being asked to use a pencil!!
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited April 2019
    From Frankie Boyle's New World Order last night

    "Britain is slowly starting to face up to its true status in the world, as a sort of tramp's liver that the European body is rejecting". :lol:
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Odious or not, Farage, who had a close relationship with Banks (but has now distanced himself) in a recent Yougov poll came out ahead of Labour, The Tories, the Libdems etc etc etc with Change UK (please!) languishing in last place.

    So what? The poll was for voting intentions in the European elections, UKIP (with Farage) were ahead in the polls before the 2014 Euro Elections and went on to win the largest share of the votes - 26.6%, Lab 24.4%, Con 23.1% - but it never transfers into votes in a General Election.

    A year later they only got 12.6% (a distant third behind Labour 30.4% and the Tories 36.8%).

    The turnout for the Euro Elections has never been higher than 38.5%, in 1999 it was as low as 24%. They're not much of a guide to what the country is thinking.
    imagelost said:

    So my wife lied to me!
    About being asked to use a pencil!!

    Okay details. Who asked your wife to use a pencil? Where? When?
  • imagelostimagelost
    edited April 2019
    ASLEFshrugged said:

    From Frankie Boyle's New World Order last night

    "Britain is slowly starting to face up to its true status in the world, as a sort of tramp's liver that the European body is rejecting". :lol:

    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Odious or not, Farage, who had a close relationship with Banks (but has now distanced himself) in a recent Yougov poll came out ahead of Labour, The Tories, the Libdems etc etc etc with Change UK (please!) languishing in last place.

    So what? The poll was for voting intentions in the European elections, UKIP (with Farage) were ahead in the polls before the 2014 Euro Elections and went on to win the largest share of the votes - 26.6%, Lab 24.4%, Con 23.1% - but it never transfers into votes in a General Election.

    A year later they only got 12.6% (a distant third behind Labour 30.4% and the Tories 36.8%).

    The turnout for the Euro Elections has never been higher than 38.5%, in 1999 it was as low as 24%. They're not much of a guide to what the country is thinking.
    imagelost said:

    So my wife lied to me!
    About being asked to use a pencil!!

    Okay details. Who asked your wife to use a pencil? Where? When?
    Aslef
    Some people was handing out flyers
    Stating use a pencil
    The police was called and some them had helpthe police with there inquires,,,I was told it’s Civil matter not criminal matter.
    I kept one flyers I used it as book marker,,
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    And these people were? Where were they?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    imagelost said:


    I kept one flyers I used it as book marker,,

    Could you take a photo and post it?
  • imagelostimagelost
    Did I say it is police matter
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    edited April 2019
    The police was called and some them had helpthe police with there inquires,,,I was told it’s Civil matter not criminal matter
    If there's been nothing done since May 2016 then its highly unlikely its still a police matter any more.

    Don't understand how it could be a civil matter as that would be someone suing someone else for damages so nothing to do with the police. If they were breaking the laws covering elections then that's criminal and it would have been a police matter.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    Don't understand why you can't show us a picture of your bookmark?

    However, in the absence of any evidence, I haven't changed my view on 'pencilgate'.

    It's a baseless conspiracy theory.

    Having said that, for anyone who believes such a fraudulent scheme is plausible, can you be sure that LEAVE didn't carry out such a fraud? :wink:
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