Brexit

TheMadcapLaughs

Funny, I thought the meeting last night was held in Brussels.........

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47873072

Cuz1

Are we still in the eu I’ve been asleep for a couple of years

ASLEFshrugged

So now we're leaving on 31st October.

Trick or treat?

chicagohammer

I really am not sure that the delay will result in any greater level of public understanding but I am hopeful that it does give us the breathing room to actually hold a second referendum.

It would be a ridiculous travesty if we just stumbled along, kicking the can down the road only to face the same issues in oct as we are now.

TheMadcapLaughs

Chicago. If there was a second referendum, and remain won by the same margin (52-48), it appears to me that remainers would be happy to accept that result as firm and final, and a line would be drawn under the whole sorry episode. I just can`t get my head around that. I also don`t understand what would happen if leave won again, would that put us at the back to square one? I personally can`t see the benefit of a second referendum with a straight in and out choice again.

On a slightly different note, leavers have been asked to give concrete reasons on why they voted to leave. I didn`t have any concrete reasons at the time, just an ideological opposition to big government. I now have three concrete reasons: Blair. Mandelson. Campbell.

TheMadcapLaughs

Cuz1 said:

Are we still in the eu I’ve been asleep for a couple of years

Cuz, I think you need to nod off a bit longer than that. We`re still in and May is about to present her withdrawal agreement for the 24th time. Oh, and the country has run out of loo roll.....................

Cuz1

Night then zzzzzzz

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

If there was a second referendum, and remain won by the same margin (52-48), it appears to me that remainers would be happy to accept that result as firm and final, and a line would be drawn under the whole sorry episode. I just can`t get my head around that.

If you object (rightly) to Leavers misstating Brexiteers opinions, why do the same to Leavers?

I have no interest in how close or not the vote was - that has never been my concern.

I do feel that the fact that elements of the Leave campaign broke electoral law is a serious issue, which on its own should result in a re-run (as it would for parliamentary elections.)

In addition, I have serious concerns about elements of the Leave campaign using 'dark' ads on social media.

I also feel it would be beneficial to have a second referendum now that people are clearer about what kind of Brexit is available.

If that vote is still for Leave, that's what it is (wrong-headed as I feel it would be.)

TheMadcapLaughs

Mr G, the point in regards to the closeness was surely that would still leave the nation split and would be equally inconclusive. I can`t get my head around the fact that leave win one referendum, "that`s not the end of it", remain win a referendum, "that`s the end of it". I just don`t see the logic in that argument. If the argument was: have another referendum now, remain win, to put the issue to bed we`ll have a third and final one in another three years. My point is a narrow victory for remain does nothing to solve the issues that brought 17.4 million leavers to the ballot box. In fact if anything a narrow victory for remain and the immediate cancellation of brexit would increase tensions imo. I don`t care either way now personally, but to cancel brexit at "one all" would be very dangerous, again imo.

MrsGrey

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/switzerland-court-overturns-referendum-as-voters-were-poorly-informed

They have referenda all the time. What a nightmare.

I wonder if their rules say you can't ask people to vote on the same question within a certain period of time.

TheMadcapLaughs

By dangerous, I don`t mean old people knitting yellow tank tops and driving their mobility scooters in an inconsiderate manner, I mean the rise of the far right. If the multitude of right leaning groups got their acts together in a united front.........
Who predicted Brexit and Trump. Who would have thought that the largest opposition party in Germany would be openly Fascist. Look at Italy, France, Spain and the old Eastern Block. This country has never gone down that route. Cancel brexit without addressing the the problems and people (illogically) will shift further to the right, imo.

MrsGrey

I don't think cancelling Brexit will create any new 'far right' people. The ideology of the 'far right' crosses certain lines that I really don't believe something like EU membership will push peple over.

If you aren't racist, you wont embrace that ideology just because a second referendum result would lead to a no-brexit.


Also, I don't think we should base decision about what the country does on what the far right will or won't like.

grey_til_I_dye

Madcap

Not sure what you can't get your head round, tbh.

The conduct of a number of prominent Leave campaigners broke electoral law.

In addition, they put out knowingly false information to targeted users of social media, which may or may not be illegal, but should certainly be considered shameful.

It shouldn't simply be about 'winning', it should be about a fair and legal process.

The country is going to remain divided whether or not there is a second referendum, and whatever the result should there be one.

claretandbluesky

The second referendum for remainers would allow them to move on in acceptance should leave win now that the true deal on offer has been established. We will be unhappy but can have no argument as we have at present, as this argument is based on the idea that the referendum was won on lies. Many feel that the threat to democracy is not in refusing to honour a vote won on lies but allowing votes to be stolen on lies that cannot be delivered.

This brings us to the question that would be asked. We could for clarity have a straight remain or no deal, but I feel sure the leave camp wouldn't like that, but they would find it hard to not accept it as their argument at present is based upon the idea that everyone knew what they were voting for and it is represented only by that which no deal offers.

A fair but less straight forward paper could include simply remain with one box to tick, whilst in the leave section you could tick leave with the actual guaranteed deal offered by the EU or no deal. We then add both leave votes together to make one figure which is measured against the remain figure. Should the leave figure be greater then the option with the higher of the two possibilities is acted upon.

TheMadcapLaughs

Like that idea claret, if there is to be another referendum that seems about as good as it gets. I still don't buy the argument that leave gained umpteen votes from lies but project fear had no bearing on the remain vote. To me the fact that every agency of the establishment pushed for remain and every headline/prediction was negative in regards to brexit I would imagine that most floating voters would have come down on the remain side. Imo. When is that emergency budget planned for?

chicagohammer

If we had a second referendum, I agree that a close win for remain would show that the country was stubbornly divided - officially I think the referendums are non binding so in the case that resulted above, I think it would be reasonable to stay in and hold a third and final vote in a few years.

A win for leave would clearly result in us following through and leaving, however I think that a second referendum could result in a crushing win in favor of staying, in that instance we should allow ourselves the luxury of overturning the current leave position.

You will never be able to satisfy everyone and I agree that what I am suggesting has a slightly ridiculous air about it, however it appears to me that it at least produces a path that the majority of people would be able to support, or at least, live with.

Option 1 a second win for leave, so we leave

Option 2 a narrow win for remain, so we take a breath, stay in and set in stone a final decisive vote in three years

Option 3 a clear crushing win for remain, where we remain

EXETERHAMMER

Farage is back.

TheMadcapLaughs

MrsGrey said:

I don't think cancelling Brexit will create any new 'far right' people. The ideology of the 'far right' crosses certain lines that I really don't believe something like EU membership will push peple over.

If you aren't racist, you wont embrace that ideology just because a second referendum result would lead to a no-brexit.


Also, I don't think we should base decision about what the country does on what the far right will or won't like.

I agree with 90% of this. But it is a well known fact that if the current system is failing a significant proportion of the population, then those let down people look for alternatives. If a proportion of the "let down" blame the EU and the current "elite" promise to dump the EU, and after all that is what the majority of MP`s agreed to, if that outcome fails to materialise then the "let down" will feel further let down. If you have all major political parties complicit in this then who do said voters turn to. The message from the far right is a lot more subtle than I think you give them credit for, it is not all about racism/immigration. The message will be anti establishment (primarily). The impression I get from remainers is "brexit has been and will be a disaster, let`s cancel this mess and get back to how we were". "How we were" (imo) is not the answer. Where are the solutions, where are the radical ideas, what are the proposals from the UK and the EU. All I see is more of the same.

And as Exeter has pointed out, Farage is back. Who started this thread by the way.

ASLEFshrugged

EXETERHAMMER said:

Farage is back.

But how many people will vote UKIP without realising?

TheMadcapLaughs

Aslef :ok: I think that Farage will actually split the leavers vote, or the anti establishment vote. He could actually do labour and the conservatives a favour. He has promised to shake up British politics, but the party name suggests (the brexit party) that it may possibly be a single issue party? They are not standing in the local elections, and there are no plans, as far as I`m aware, that they will stand in the next general election.

TheMadcapLaughs

Things are ramping up, the yellow vests have taken to the streets.......

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/protesters-block-aldi-store-demanding-14288400

:wahoo:

MrsGrey

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/daily-telegraph-forced-correct-false-brexit-claim-boris-johnson

So, he made factually inaccurate claim.

But instead of just correcting it an apologising, The Telegraph
argued
Johnson was “entitled to make sweeping generalisations based on his opinions” and
and anyway, we shouldn't take it seriously as the article “was clearly comically polemical" .

in other words we can just print any old rubbish.

TheMadcapLaughs

For those that are interested, this is an excellent (imo) article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/14/project-fear-remainer-patriotism-second-referendum-brexit

imagelost

Mad cap :ok:
Status quo

TheMadcapLaughs

It`s a small World. I have just had in my shop one of THE main proponents of "leave means leave" as in, if you go to the "who we are" page on their website the chap is there loud and proud. We didn`t talk about brexit, and I definitley didn`t mention my (a)political leanings. He has spent some money and is likely to spend more. I have my pride. But I also have a large mortgage, two teenagers, a large dog, two cats, a wife and a vodka habit to feed. God bless capitalism.

grey_til_I_dye

The European Parliament has approved new EU rules to protect workers in the so-called "gig economy".

The law sets minimum rights and demands increased transparency for those in "on-demand" jobs, such as at Uber or Deliveroo.

It proposes more predictable hours and compensation for cancelled work, and an end to "abusive practices" around casual contracts.

Member states will now have at most three years to enforce the new rules.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220

Wonder if that will get enshrined in UK law after Brexit.

MrsGrey

Only if Corbyn manages t get the govt to go beyond what they've done to date.

Of course, the UK govt could go it alone in setting even higher standards than those agreed by the other EU member states.

Right, I'm off to muck out the unicorn :run:

grey_til_I_dye

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-leave-eu-faked-migrant-footage

MrsGrey

Facebook is utterly rubbish at removing faked content, even when it is pointed out to them (more than once) and it is indisputably fake.

MrsGrey

This is what their policy is. (My bold text)

Reducing the spread of false news on Facebook is a responsibility that we take seriously. We also recognise that this is a challenging and sensitive issue. We want to help people stay informed without stifling productive public discourse. There is also a fine line between false news and satire or opinion. For these reasons, we don't remove false news from Facebook, but instead significantly reduce its distribution by showing it lower in the News Feed.

:doh:


I particularly like 'We want to help people stay informed'...

how is someone staying informed if they are reading lies, misrepresentations and stuff that's made up?