Brexit

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  • Farage is back.
  • MrsGrey said:

    I don't think cancelling Brexit will create any new 'far right' people. The ideology of the 'far right' crosses certain lines that I really don't believe something like EU membership will push peple over.

    If you aren't racist, you wont embrace that ideology just because a second referendum result would lead to a no-brexit.


    Also, I don't think we should base decision about what the country does on what the far right will or won't like.

    I agree with 90% of this. But it is a well known fact that if the current system is failing a significant proportion of the population, then those let down people look for alternatives. If a proportion of the "let down" blame the EU and the current "elite" promise to dump the EU, and after all that is what the majority of MP`s agreed to, if that outcome fails to materialise then the "let down" will feel further let down. If you have all major political parties complicit in this then who do said voters turn to. The message from the far right is a lot more subtle than I think you give them credit for, it is not all about racism/immigration. The message will be anti establishment (primarily). The impression I get from remainers is "brexit has been and will be a disaster, let`s cancel this mess and get back to how we were". "How we were" (imo) is not the answer. Where are the solutions, where are the radical ideas, what are the proposals from the UK and the EU. All I see is more of the same.

    And as Exeter has pointed out, Farage is back. Who started this thread by the way.
  • Farage is back.

    But how many people will vote UKIP without realising?
  • Aslef :ok: I think that Farage will actually split the leavers vote, or the anti establishment vote. He could actually do labour and the conservatives a favour. He has promised to shake up British politics, but the party name suggests (the brexit party) that it may possibly be a single issue party? They are not standing in the local elections, and there are no plans, as far as I`m aware, that they will stand in the next general election.
  • Things are ramping up, the yellow vests have taken to the streets.......

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/protesters-block-aldi-store-demanding-14288400

    :wahoo:
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/daily-telegraph-forced-correct-false-brexit-claim-boris-johnson

    So, he made factually inaccurate claim.

    But instead of just correcting it an apologising, The Telegraph
    argued
    Johnson was “entitled to make sweeping generalisations based on his opinions” and
    and anyway, we shouldn't take it seriously as the article “was clearly comically polemical" .

    in other words we can just print any old rubbish.
  • Mad cap :ok:
    Status quo
  • It`s a small World. I have just had in my shop one of THE main proponents of "leave means leave" as in, if you go to the "who we are" page on their website the chap is there loud and proud. We didn`t talk about brexit, and I definitley didn`t mention my (a)political leanings. He has spent some money and is likely to spend more. I have my pride. But I also have a large mortgage, two teenagers, a large dog, two cats, a wife and a vodka habit to feed. God bless capitalism.
  • The European Parliament has approved new EU rules to protect workers in the so-called "gig economy".

    The law sets minimum rights and demands increased transparency for those in "on-demand" jobs, such as at Uber or Deliveroo.

    It proposes more predictable hours and compensation for cancelled work, and an end to "abusive practices" around casual contracts.

    Member states will now have at most three years to enforce the new rules.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220

    Wonder if that will get enshrined in UK law after Brexit.
  • Only if Corbyn manages t get the govt to go beyond what they've done to date.

    Of course, the UK govt could go it alone in setting even higher standards than those agreed by the other EU member states.

    Right, I'm off to muck out the unicorn :run:
  • edited April 2019
    Facebook is utterly rubbish at removing faked content, even when it is pointed out to them (more than once) and it is indisputably fake. :angry:
  • This is what their policy is. (My bold text)

    Reducing the spread of false news on Facebook is a responsibility that we take seriously. We also recognise that this is a challenging and sensitive issue. We want to help people stay informed without stifling productive public discourse. There is also a fine line between false news and satire or opinion. For these reasons, we don't remove false news from Facebook, but instead significantly reduce its distribution by showing it lower in the News Feed.
    :doh:


    I particularly like 'We want to help people stay informed'...

    how is someone staying informed if they are reading lies, misrepresentations and stuff that's made up?
  • How do you track fake news though ?

    How does Facebook govern what is fake and what is not ?

    In that Channel 4 link Grey posted Leave.EU accuse Channel 4 of fake news ? so who is right and who is wrong, does someone investigate it ? therefore whilst it is being investigated does the news from any accusation of "Fake news" then get removed until it has been investigated.
  • Yeold

    There's no doubt it's complex, but I don't think that is an excuse for doing nothing.

  • It stays up while it's being investigated, and once there's evidence that it's fake, it gets taken down.

    For example, in the case you give, LeaveEU's 'evidence' against Ch4 is simply an allegation, with nothing to back it up. I don't call that fake news as long as it is clear that the statement is just an allegation and LeaveEU don't try to claim it is 'fact'.

    On the other hand, some things are simple to prove/disprove and can be done so without a big debate.

    I don't disagree that some issues/reports might be not clear cut.

    My gripe is mainly with the FB decision simply not to remove fake news... and the justification for it.
  • Is God and Christianity (other religions are available) fake news? Or is the existence of God fact?
  • Seriously, Madcap, that's the level you want to take the conversation to?
  • edited April 2019
    Religion certainly does exist, that is an undeniable fact and just to prove that fact a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses just rang my doorbell.

    As the existence of God cannot be proven (or disproven) it is a "belief" not a fact.

    Fake news is when someone publishes outright lies.
  • I think the point Madcap is making is that some faith-based statements are going to be acceptable on social media in our mixed society, so who decides what is acceptable and Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchmen?

    The fact that quote is 2000 years old shows that we've been struggling with similar issues for a long time. I suddenly have a strange amount of sympathy for Facebook...

    I suspect education, critical reading and challenging will be more effective countermeasures than censorship. It's certainly what I'm going for with my son, rather than rely on outside protection.
  • If it's a lie, it's a lie.

    It it's made as a statement of fact, and it's not true, it's false.

    No debate, no quibbling.


    When we talk about 'fake news' we are referring to something is deliberately made up and shared/published/promulgated with the intent of misleading and deceiving.

    It's absolutely NOT the same as an expression of faith-based (or any other) belief. Nor is it the same as a view held or position taken.


    I don't disagree with you about the importance of critical reading. Sadly so many people can't or won't.
  • Fake news is when someone publishes outright lies.

    And the bible is.....................?

    Fake news for one is gospel to another. I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to fake news, by the way, faking photos, publishing false facts/figures etc etc etc. But the lines are very blurred and, well, see Valiant above. :ok:
  • Madcap

    It is an utterly different discussion, as I am sure you are well aware.
  • What would you file people who are "Anti-Vaxxers" under, proponents of "Fake news" ? who claim it is fact that vaccinations can lead to X Y Z.
  • f they make false statements of fact in their arguments, they are promoting fake news.

    Otherwise they are just a group who believes something which has no science behind it. Same as people who say eating a teaspoon of turmeric will cure diabetes, or standing in a barrel of newts at the full moon will cure cancer.
  • Fake news is when someone publishes outright lies.

    And the bible is.....................?

    If this is meant to be challenge to my definition, I can only suggest you look again.

    Note 'deliberately made up'

    and

    'with intent to deceive'


    Not the same thing at all. You are trying to shoehorn something in where it doesn't belong.
  • I don`t think it is. You may call it fake news, I like to call it propaganda. Making things up to support a narrative, a belief system, is as old as humanity.

    Headline: MAN FEEDS 5000 WITH TWO FISH AND A LOAF.

    It`s how power and control systems (belief systems) operate. The internet has made this situation worse, and "fake news" can be spread worldwide within a matter of hours. But this is nothing new.
  • "Fake news" is not published for the sake of it. "Fake news" is published in support of a belief system, the two things are not mutually exclusive. A fake news story is published to persuade people to believe what the author believes. Whether that is a jehovah witness, a ukipper, or a white supremacist. Fake news is nothing more nor less than propaganda, a way of manipulating beliefs.
  • edited April 2019
    I do agree that fake news is always created to support an agenda, but I suppose the argument is that if the journalist who, for example, wrote 'MAN FEEDS 5000 WITH TWO FISH AND A LOAF' genuinely believed it happened, he can't be accused of deliberately misleading people.

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