Brexit

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  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    An interesting view from a committed Brexiteer:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

    He makes, imo, a series of extremely cogent points.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    A long read, but he makes his case well, I think.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Thanks for posting that Grey.
    It would be interesting to hear from the Leavers on here what they think of it and whether it would similarly change their minds .
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    That is an excellent article, primarily for the fact that it explains things in an easy to understand way. A couple of things I would disagree on, he makes some assumptions on our future prosperity that (imo) are simply that, assumptions, he also praises Theresa May, I`m sorry, but Theresa Mays intransigence has (imo) been one of the main obstacles to progress. I still think that if the members of parliament had tackled Brexit with the same level of enthusiasm they have for their expenses claims then we might have stood a chance. That is the problem, our parliament is a remainer institution, there is no appetite from within those walls for Brexit. Doomed to fail.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    One other point, and I think from memory he does touch on this, continuing on our present path, that is both within the EU and domestically, is a recipe for disaster. There are such levels of inequality, there is such a disconnect between government and citizen, that the status quo is not the safe option.

    Bubbles, no. Leave means leave.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    Madcap, see my post on page 30, 5th from top ;)

  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    :nonono:
  • Cuz1Cuz1
    BubblesNeverDies said:

    Madcap, see my post on page 30, 5th from top ;)

    It also says to pull out of and to withdraw
  • imagelostimagelost
    edited April 2019
    I remember complaining to my mother and father,, why did you vote in favour in common Market “ which regret at that time”
    I do not want to blamed for remain I justified this by I do not want to be part of Europe army navy,, what ever I had a swaz,, fin and Austrian in charge of us a some point.It does not work also friends in Plymouth said uk and Europe help mess up our fishing in our own waters,
    I vote out
    And still want out
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    edited April 2019
    So it seems that nothing will change some leavers' minds.

    "We've got that cliff edge all arranged and by Jingo we're going to drive right off it."
  • BarneyBarney
    Bubbles - appreciate that you may see it as a cliff edge but I have confidence in the UK and do not want our courts, laws, immigration, army etc etc controlled by the EU. I believe that others will leave in due course. The principle of a free trade area was good but European control keeps expanding and it is not for me. So rather than a cliff edge I see it as a fresh start, taking control of key issues for our country and we can still have close ties with Europe when and where we want them.
  • BubblesNeverDiesBubblesNeverDies
    edited April 2019
    Barney I can't understand how, if you've read anything that's gone before or that article that Grey posted a link to, you still say "(I) do not want our courts, laws, immigration, army etc etc controlled by the EU."
  • MoojorMoojor
    barney, what laws, court rulings etc do you believe are controlled by the EU and not us?
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Moojor, in theory all UK laws are controlled by the EU, in as much as the UK cannot pass laws that would conflict the EU. When it comes down to it, the EU is the final arbiter. It`s a matter of principle. I do think it is a little unfair to press people on specifics. I don`t think any one of us could name a specific EU law. On the subject of principle, this is one reason the hard left object to the EU. It would be absolutely impossible for any hard left government to commit to a full programme of nationalisation and state support/interference. Before anyone fact checks this, the EU allow a modicum of state control within public services, I`m not disputing that, but within the constraints of current EU laws, no member state would be allowed to go "full on" socialist. Within the EU all of us are, by design, neo liberals. By its very nature, the EU, is attempting to homogenize Europe.
  • BarneyBarney
    Bubbles / Moojor. The European court takes precedent over ours - the speaker made the point quite clear in the commons a few days ago. As an example the European Court of Human Rights is superior to our courts
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Moojor, in theory all UK laws are controlled by the EU, in as much as the UK cannot pass laws that would conflict the EU.

    But it can pass laws that don't contradict the EU ones.

    I posted earlier in this thread an assessment of how much UK 'law' originates with the EU.

    I started looking back to find t but then realised that nobody wants to know the facts, so I'll just go and have my breakfast instead :porkpie: :cappuccino:
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    Barney said:

    Bubbles / Moojor. The European court takes precedent over ours - the speaker made the point quite clear in the commons a few days ago. As an example the European Court of Human Rights is superior to our courts

    Barney, the European Court of Human Rights has NOTHING to do with the EU!!!!!

    Leaving the EU will not change the role of the European Court of Human Rights.

    :weep:
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    The ECHR has jurisdiction ONLY in respect of the Convention on Human Rights, that the UK signed up to (long before we joined the EU). It has no jurisdiction in ANY OTHER area of our law.
  • OldCastleSwiftOldCastleSwift
    edited April 2019
    MrsGrey said:

    I started looking back to find t but then realised that nobody wants to know the facts, so I'll just go and have my breakfast instead :porkpie: :cappuccino:

    In my experience, not necessarily on here, when you use fact in a Brexit debate, more often than not they're just dismissed as lies or Project Fear.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    edited April 2019
    Mrs G, for me your first line is the important thing. As a hypothetical, what if, in ten years time the EU is dominated by right wing populists, what if the course the EU wants to take becomes diametrically opposed to what the UK wants to achieve, what happens then. At the minute the EU is dominated by middle of the road chaps who cause little offence (to most), that may not always be the case. And Mrs G, for breakfast? Think of your cholesterol.

    I just thought, I`m sure someone will say "we have the power of veto, just oppose things we don`t like". If we disagree with the whole agenda we will be stuck in a non functioning system costing us billions a year.
  • BarneyBarney
    'The ECHR has jurisdiction ONLY in respect of the Convention on Human Rights, that the UK signed up to (long before we joined the EU). It has no jurisdiction in ANY OTHER area of our law'. Apologies - this was not a good example and I have learned something. The speaker did make it clear in the house that European courts are superior to ours.
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    The UK was one of the first countries to sign and ratify the European Convention on Human Rights because Winston Churchill was making plans for it and the Council of Europe during the war.

    One of the main contributors to the ECHR was Tory MP and judge Sir David Maxwell Fyfe.
  • ValiantIronValiantIron
    Even better if I remember my history correctly, the ECHR was written mainly by British lawyers post-war. I am entirely in favour of the ECHR.

    It's interesting where this debate has come round to. The best debate on Brexit I've seen anywhere incidentally! An important question seems to be does the scale of the EU work when it comes to balancing the needs of everybody? We already see this in the UK; are the interest rates right for the north of England or just set for the benefit of the south? Does the UK parliament care enough about Scotland, or is it too English-centric? So, will the UK lose out to the differing interests of France and Germany? This does mean that the argument for UK to leave the EU is I believe very similar to Scotland's argument to leave the UK!

    What does happen if the EU swings to a direction we don't like or doesn't suit us? I consider this a long term structural question and ultimately decided that while nominally democratic, the EU institutions are not accountable enough for my taste and voted to leave. The distance between me and my representative is simply too great to be effective.

    This doesn't solve the Irish border issue though...
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Aslef, are you OK? Are you well? I have posted a number of times in the past two days and you haven`t pulled them apart with logic and facts. :hmm:

    And just for clarification: :biggrin:
  • ASLEFshruggedASLEFshrugged
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    Aslef, are you OK? Are you well? I have posted a number of times in the past two days and you haven`t pulled them apart with logic and facts. :hmm:

    And just for clarification: :biggrin:

    I do have a life outside of WHU606.com.

    I leave this thread for a few hours to drive a train, visit Old Mother shrugged or go down the pub and the next time I look there are 20 or more posts. I just can't be bothered reading them all - especially the very long ones without paragraph breaks :whistle:
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    Barney said:

    ' The speaker did make it clear in the house that European courts are superior to ours.

    Only in respect of legislation that originates from the EU and has been tranlsated into domestic law.

    Our own UK-derived laws are not subject to the EU courts.

    (And contrary to what people might tell you, it's nowhere near 'all' our law that comes from the EU.)
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited April 2019
    TheMadcapLaughs said:

    As a hypothetical, what if, in ten years time the EU is dominated by right wing populists, what if the course the EU wants to take becomes diametrically opposed to what the UK wants to achieve, what happens then. At the minute the EU is dominated by middle of the road chaps who cause little offence (to most), that may not always be the case.

    I just thought, I`m sure someone will say "we have the power of veto, just oppose things we don`t like". If we disagree with the whole agenda we will be stuck in a non functioning system costing us billions a year.

    Project Fear 2.0 :whistle: :wink:
  • Expat_HammerExpat_Hammer
    edited April 2019
    How many of you know life before the E U?
    When Freddy Frog didn't want us as part of the club....

    We managed OK then, so why not now?
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited April 2019
    Expat

    Maybe because things have changed?
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Vorse, if I could I would give you an excellent as well.
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